NOTES:  This meeting was held at the COE, Corps of Engineers', office, 1222 Spruce St., Downtown, St. Louis, from 2 till about 4:15 pm. 


Regarding checking on names as heard at the mtg & on the tape: Section 1 below - I talked with Mr. Dooley (who was extremely patient, polite, pleasant & helpful) at COE Public Affairs in 11/02, who said he's never heard of a Bill Callagher there;  & that Joe Kellett is the COE senior civilian &  Deputy District Engineer for Planning, Programs & Project Mgmt.  Mr. Dooley also mentioned that Col. C. Kevin Williams is the new District Engineer. 


Sections 2 & 6 below, Ken & Pat Stephens' names:  On 1/22/03, I talked to Mrs. Kelly Bertoglio (who was also extremely patient, polite, pleasant & helpful), COE Counsel Office, who said there's no one at their St. Louis office named Ken or Pat Stephens.  She also said there is no Bill Callagher;  there is a William or Bill Gallagher, but he's in the Jacksonville, FL, PDPF Office, but his title is not on her list.


VP Levee Cmsn members present:  DC, DM, RW, JH, CLM & EM.  (Also RC) 



6/17/02 Levee - Section 1 of  9


(Col. Michael R. Morrow, COE District Engineer, leads the Pledge of Allegiance.) 

Col. Morrow:  Good afternoon.  I wanted to stop in & uh basically start off the mtg with uh telling you that uh how important the project is before me here & I also know the mayor, nice to meet you, & a lot of other familiar faces around the room, that uh we're gonna work very closely with you, work thru any issues that are remaining.  & Jim's done a great job of going thru & outlining the remaining issues that we have.  I know, mayor, you had a mtg this morning with Jim & you guys sat down & Eric, & went thru a lot of things with Jim.  So we'll put our heads together, stay here as long as you need to hang here to work thru the issues & so forth, to erase the questions. 


Uh as you know, I'm, I'm short, like they say in the army, I'm a short-timer.  I got uh this, not this Fri, but next Fri, I change command & uh from that point I'll be going down to uh Cencom, which is Tampa, Fl, working uh for Gen Franks, Senior Engineer on his staff & uh from that point, then we're goin' some place overseas probably.  You know, one of those ol' countries over there with sand.  So, I'm gonna miss this area, gonna miss the people & uh as I was, you know, going thru some of the stuff here today that Jim was talkin' about, I, I truly will miss uh interacting with the people, people out in the communities & so forth, meeting the mayors, meeting the Chiefs of Police, the Fire Dept & so forth, & uh just getting down & working thru the problems that come up & arise as we do that.  Um, but you know, the good news is that's only a couple yrs & I will be back.  I plan to come back up into this area when I, when I eventually get ready to hang things up, & but who knows how long that's gonna be.  So, in the near term, it could be about 2 yrs I guess (people chuckle).  Now, so go ahead, let's work thru any issues that you have.  Does anybody have any questions for me? (none heard) If not, I'm gonna turn this over to Jim. Jim. Thank you very much. 


(JZ tells people to get papers from the table & tells everyone to introduce themselves, after he briefly introduces a few himself.) 


JZ: Meet Bill Callagher, our new Deputy District Eng for Project Mgmt.  _ _ _ _ _  & he's gonna be with us for a good part of the meeting.  Did you have anything you wanted to say?  Mr Callagher:  No, I uh, I just hope that uh we're able to get thru a lot of issues here.  I know there's a lot of sticky issues here.  I appreciate you all comin' in & uh um, I know Jim has done a good job of identifying those hurdles we have to overcome.  I'm looking forward to us doing some construction here & uh next yr. 


JZ: Mayor Dan Michel, Did you want to say, give any remarks at all _ _ _ ?  DM: Like I say _ _ _  everyone pulling together.  What are we gonna do to keep this going & get it done as quickly as possible?   JZ: I, I know every, almost everybody here, but I know of a lot of you don't know each other.  I've seen Tom Horgan at uh most of the levee cmsn mtgs on several other occasions.  Tom is with Congressman Akin's office.  With that, why don't we start with Ken  Dalrymple here.  Just go around the table & tell us who you are & who you represent.  If you're, a lot of people on the levee cmsn are members of the bd of aldermen, or representing the news _ _ , or whatever, let us know that also.

( Ken Dalrymple says he's with the COE Environmental Section.  Mike Daily says he also works for the COE, 404 Permit Section.  Dan Michel (DM) says he's Mayor of Valley Park.  Eric Martin (EM) says he a lawyer for the City of VP.  Russ Causey (RC) says he's an alderman for City of VP.   Jim Halamicek (JH) says he's with the Valley Park Business Assn.  Tom Horgan (TH) says he's with Congressman Todd Akin's office.  Chief Rick Wilken (RW) says he's with VP Fire.  Maureen Morris (MM) says name & #8 Arnold Drive.  Joe Kellett says he's with the Corps of Engineers (he's the COE senior civilian &  Deputy District Engineer for Planning, Programs & Project Mgmt).  Dave Cusack (DC) says he's the Project Coordinator & Consultant for City VP.  Greg Bertoglio says he's with the COE, Civil Design.  (Col) Lee McKinney (CLM) says he's with McKinney Assoc Consulting in VP & he's working with VP,  trying to finish up something he wasn't successful in doing as District Engineer (most laugh with him).  Pat Conroy says he's COE Geotechnical Eng on the project.  Harry Hamell  says COE, Real Estate Div.  Joe Schwenk says he's Chief of Foundation Design Section, Geotechnical Branch.  Terry Norris says he's a district archeologist with the COE.  Dennis Stephens says he's a hydraulic engineer.  Mike Feldmann says he's a construction area engineer.  Arch Ringgenberg says he's a contracting officer with the district.   _ _  Poly (MsP) says she's Chief of Project Management at the branch.  (Another lady is inaudible, but she is an intern with Cong Akin's office.)  Diana Stewart says she's with the West St. Louis County Chamber of Commerce.  Alice Parks says she's the Pres of West St. Louis County Chamber of Commerce.  Vivian Blackman says she is an interested citizen of VP.  A lady stands up from behind a big post & says:  Sitting behind the post, I'm Julie  _ _ _,  executive _ _ _ _ _  .  Kirk Carson now enters the room & says he's with P.H. Weis & Assoc.)

6/17/02 Levee - Section 2 of  9

JZ: This is the first time in my career that I've got the mayor of the community, the board of aldeman, levee commission, all coming in to the COE to get an update & help move the project forward.  We really appreciate you all coming & _ _ _ _ _ _.  I'm gonna fall back to the agenda here.  Does everybody, pretty much everybody, have a copy of the agenda?  Are there any extras around that - ?   Um, first of all, we've done the introductions. 

We, we've had a near, a near, I guess a near disaster as far as flooding is concerned, this past April & May.  Uh, we had forecasted uh floodings of like 4' deep in much of the whole _ _ _  section of VP, including the area around city hall & we all pretty much thought that might happen.  Ken Stephens, is our hydraulics _ _ _ .  He was worried, but fortunately, uh it didn't get that high.  But it just reminds us how uh, how open we are to flooding.  The project is uh, I'll show you in a minute, 60% completed, but so it still opens the whole cmty to flooding & uh, you know, we, we dodged a bullet & need to get this project completed as soon as we can & _ _ _ _ . 

Overview of the project - we have some people here who probably are not that familiar with uh, the COE projects or with this project & a lot of people who are very familiar with itBut in general, the cost sharing on, on this project is generally uh 75% federal & 25% sponsor.  Sponsor has to provide all the lands & do all the relocations associated with the project;  that's part of their 25% share.  So that's generally the way it works.  There's some, there's more details that are, all the uh appropriate people are well aware of. 

The project, this is the Meramec River (pointing to one of two maps on stands) here & this is Hiway 141 coming in, Interstate 44 is down this way & here's Hiway 141 coming into VPWe have sections of levee completed that are shown in green here over by Vance Ave over to the Union Pacific tracks, & we have the section of levee all the way around to St. Louis Ave.  We have some closing structures completed, but we have about 40% of the project that's uncompleted, which is shown in yellow.  In this uncompleted area, we have uh a very large industry in ruins from an industry that are shown in red there, the St. Louis Glass Plant, which is a big part of our remaining job to take care of those facilities because they have to be removed as we, as we build our levee.  Uh, I think with that, I'm gonna ask Mike Feldman just to step up & say a few words about past construction, & Mike is our, our area engineer for this, for this section of the St. Louis District

CLM: Jim, one question.  You, I know you've been using 60% & 40%, is that based upon actual length of the levee, or based upon cost of the project?  JZ: Um, it's, it's generally physical, physical uh completion of the project. Um it's not, it's not based on exactly on cost, but about, about 50% of the length of the levee is completed & 3 closure structures are completed, so I just use - CLM: So the length plus the closure structure - cut off by JZ: In my mind, _ _ _ . 

Mike F: Well good afternoon everybody, as uh Jim said, I'll just kind of give you a detail of how we got the uh 60% completion kind of a, of a who did what in the City of VP to get the protection built that we have so far.  Uh, we've had a total of basically 5 major construction contracts over the course of the project that have been completed.  Uh, the first one, back in about 1992 I guess, was the first contract.  That built the St. Louis Ave closure structure down here on the uh east side of the project.  The contract was just to build that one closure structure.  That was completed by uh Fruin-Colon.  Uh I believe in 1993, the contract was completed. 

Uh the next phase, that was titled Item 1, uh for the project.  The next phase was, was an Item 2 phase of the con, of the project & it was completed by St. Louis Bridge Construction & that was taken care of over here on the west side of the project.  Uh we had about 3400' of levee.  Uh, both ends of the levee tie into high ground on the north side & ties into the, to the natural high ground & on the south side here, it ties into the Union Pacific tracks.  Uh, within that reach of the contract, we also constructed Vance Ave closure structure across Vance Ave.  Also constructed the uh Fishpot uh detention basin & a gravity drain that uh connects the uh detention basin to Fishpot Creek, down here on the south side.  That was a contract that was awarded in 1995 & completed in 96. 

Um, we then came back to the uh east side of the project again & Item 3 of the project was actually divided into 2 construction contracts.  Item 3A was started over here at the St. Louis Ave closure structure.  Um, started in 1998 & it extended north & around the corner just past where MSD's uh sewage lagoon is.  That was a contract constructed by uh Mosley Construction.  It was a competitive bid contract, but it was uh, awarded to an 8A _ _ _ _ _  advantage contractor.  That included not only levee construction, but also again the Simpson Lake detention uh reservoir & the Simpson Lake gravity drain that connects the reservoir to Simpson Lake.  Uh, that was completed late 1999, early 2000, depending upon what level of completion we're talking about. 

The, then the 2nd half of that Item 3 contract was picked up where Mosley left off & was taken all the way to high ground here, uh ties into the Burlington Northern RR.  That contract was constructed by uh Kajacs Construction;  again, a competitively bid contract awarded to an 8A _ _ _ _ _ advantage contractor. Uh, they constructed the rest of that levee & again, they started the construction of the Grand Glaize detention area down here, um just by excavating flood material as they needed for the levee.  We have some excavation still remaining.  They also completed the Grand Glaize gravity drain, again connects that detention area to uh Grand Glaize Creek. 

Uh, this construction also included some uh, some environmental work on the north side of the levee, this area in here which we're gonna be doing some additional work again, but that was some significant geographical work that was done in that area.  & that work was awarded in 2000 & completed the following Spring, in 2001.  So that's, that's the 5 major contracts. (others comment simultaneously & all laugh with Mike F)  I forgot my favorite contract.  Pardon me, I described 4.  We have a 5th contract that was awarded again in 2001, completed ostensibly, the same yr.  That was our Item 4A contract down in the south end of the project.  That contract constructed a RR closure structure across the uh Burlington Northern tracks.  Uh, does not tie into levee on either side yet, just constructs that levee closure structure awaiting the levee on both sides.  That's that little, tiny green dot right here.  JZ: Hard to see that.  Mike F: Yes it was. (JZ thanks him.) 

JZ:  I'll just point out that uh this highway closure structure, you know, there are, there are a lot of difficulties involved in these.  We had to coordinate with Burlington Northern & they put in a temporary bridge so that we could work underneath the bridge, our contractor could, & they had to put that bridge in & take it out, uh put the bridge in whenever trains needed to come by, reconnect their signaling system.  I mean there was a major effort just to figure out how to get this job done & to get an agreemt with the RR that would allow them to work on this project & we paid them for their part as well as uh our contractor, uh, so just, just for your info. 

One of the purposes of this mtg & Eric Martin called me & asked if I could put it together, was for the uh VP officials to meet the COE team working on this project.  So that's why I'd like, you know, I'm having uh some team members say, say some of the things that need to be said today, for your info.  So get with the other team members _______ . 

Uh next to Mike Feldmann, Arch Ringgenberg, introduced himself, but he is the contracting officer involved in all of our construction contracts.  When we, we prepare the plans & specifications, we prepare our contract, they're the ones who advertise this job & make sure all the rules are followed, _ _ _  whatever  process, competitive bid, or whatever & then we follow the contract all the way thru the, of the claims & modifications & so forth & they're part of our team & are a key part of our success really I think.  I think sometimes we, we do uh, we are able to save money because we've gone thru these processes & the contractors are dealing with the COE & we get good bids that way sometimes.  It really helps to uh, get the job done, uh possibly with some savings. 

Uh, next item on the agenda is the fact that I just wanted to point out how the city is cooperating in many ways on this project.  & one of the things that the city has done, is to agree to maintain those parts of the project that have been completed up until we can finish the whole project & turn it over to the city.  So the city has agreed to cut the grass on these sections of the levee & open & uh & close gates & gravity drains that we just kind of think that need to happen during a flood & it's something that is very helpful for the project.  & normally we don't turn the project over until it's fully operational, fully functional, but uh in, in this case of course, kind of uh still subject to flooding, so it's really not fully functional, but the city has uh decided to help us out & maintain at their cost, which we appreciate. 

6/17/02 Levee - Section 3 of  9

Uh, I want to say just a little bit about the project cost & then we'll get into the meat of the mtg here.  Total project estimate cost at this point in time is $43M.  & one point to make is that's a significant increase over what was estimated in the beginning of the project & when we had at first signed the uh cooperation agreement, the Local Cooperation Agreement between the COE & VP.  & the COE is very much aware the cost of the project has gone up & we would certainly, we are certainly trying to keep the cost uh in line.  I know it's a problem for the city.  The city's had to go back & do several bond issues & so forth to keep uh coming up with their share of project costs & increase.  Does anybody want to discuss that at all?  (no response)

Ok, um, the next, the last bullet there & then all the numbers underneath that, talks about the need for teamwork on this project on all the activities that are needed to complete flood protection for VP.  & teamwork has to be of course between the COE's team & the team VP has assembled that includes their engineers & their consultants & their uh attorneys & appraisers & all the people involved on their side.  & then there's a lot of interaction between the 2 teams, really, the, our real estate is involved with their real estate people, uh our design team is involved with uh, with the city in many ways, so we work together.  We are a team to uh move forward on this project. 

I'm just gonna go thru the items here in order, some of the things that need to be done, some of the problems that we have to overcome to finish the project.  #1 has to do with fiscal yr. 02, the current fiscal yr's cash contributions, & we, we met with uh Eric Martin & the mayor this morning on this.  Uh, the cash contributions that are required are based, in part, on the fact uh, that uh the city's responsible for lands & relocations, as well as cash contributions & if cash, if, if lands & relocations cost more, then the cash contributions are reduced.  So we, we discussed that at length this morning & uh I think we have a plan uh to, I guess to get resolution as far as uh you know, get the documentation, the final documentation & get approval of our lands & relocations costs, uh & see where we stand as far as cash contribution requirements are concerned for this fiscal yr & hopefully resolve that between now & the end of uh July.  So that's, that's been discussed already this morning earlier.  Any, is there any question about that? 

RC:  Could you elaborate what you think the plan is or is that something the mayor wishes not to come out?  JZ: No, I think we can elaborate.  As of right now, uh there was a cash contribution request for a million $ to be made to the city back in August.  & that was based on a project cost estimate that has uh $6.7M as the estimate for the lands & relocations.  & the city is, the city believes that their costs are going to be much higher than the $6.7M & they're providing documentation to the COE to prove that & to show that.  It comes, what comes in & our cash contribution calculations will be redone, but we have to still get the information to them _ _  determination.   It involves appraisals & approval of appraisals & other documentation.

EM: It's possible that the cash contribution could be reduced for this fiscal yr significantly, depending on the land costs.  RC:  So the COE's side is perhaps the city's a little bit high & the city's side is perhaps we're a little ahead.  JZ: Not exactly, the COE's, the COE's position is that the city is behind in cash contributions.  I think the city's position is that uh, once, once they get this documentation in & approved that we'll be able to show that the city has um, much better shape than the COE's official estimate shows. 

DM: You said the city has paid 200,000, right?  So it's 800,000 & that could be reduced if the uh _ _  er the land ac, er appraisals then, come in a little bit higher than for the, come in higher than what the COE, I guess is what I'm sayin' _ _ _  could be dropped down _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .   JZ: Yeah, we don't know what the final, you know, estimate will be for this fiscal yr, but it will be _ _ _ _ _ .  CLM: When you estimate it, Jim, _ _ have that # to come back?  JZ: Well we, we say that we think it'll have to be, we'll get the, the numbers in & everything resolved by the end of July.  That's what, that's what our plan is.  But that's important because uh, we really need to have this ratio of cash contributions & fed $'s pretty much on an even scale as we move thru the project & if we don't have that, then, then we're uh, we're in danger of slowing down the project. 

Second item is uh fiscal yr 03 funds.  I know we, in order to um to award next fiscal yr, we need fed funds & sponsor funds, & this, this item deals with fed funds.  I know that uh Tom Horgan has discussed this many times.  Uh, the COE  has a budget for fiscal yr 03.  Uh there was a capability expressed for additonal funds if we, uh award construction contracts.  By the way, that question you asked at the last uh levee cmsn mtg, uh the answer, it was a question about whether or not there's authority to, to award contracts if you are able to provide the funds, & the answer is yes;  if you provide the funds, we can award the contract. 

TH: Right.  Right now, um the administration's request for uh this particular project is $600,000.  Um, the COE has a capability which I believe is, is & correct me if I'm wrong, the maximum amt they can expend on this project by law, um or statute, or - JZ: It's, it's an estimate of what we think would the maximum would be.  TH: Right. That's what I mean, &, & um uh that is 5.2M.  So you can see there's quite a  big gap.  Uh, 600,000, if allowed to stand, would obviously be very detrimental to the completion of this project.  It would delay it quite significantly & uh, uh cause uh the cost to go up even more. 

& uh, Congressman Akin has submitted a request to the Energy & Water Subcmte on Appropriations, uh for an add'l  4.6M over & above the president's request to bring, at the total for the project this yr that we would like to receive, at 5.2M, which is the COE's capability.  & uh, I am pleased to report that on Wednesday, Cong. Akin & I will be mtg with Chairman Sonny Callahan of Alabama, who is the Chairman of the Energy & Water Approps Cmte.  Uh, & we're going to meet with him.  Uh we've got some nice flood pictures from the City of VP.  We've got several uh pieces of correspondence from people in the cmty, the, the Fire Dept, the City of VP, the  West County Chamber, & we're going up & making our case for the add'l money to have & uh, God willing, we'll be able to get it. 

& uh, uh & on the other side of the aisle is uh, is the Senate side & uh, um, uh you know, we touched base with Senator Bond's office on this issue as well.  & you all, you know, certainly it would have, the money would also have to be held in, in the Senate version.  & then they would go to conference & then they would come up with a final decision, & uh the president would sign it.  Uh, the appropriation process can best be described as hurry up & wait.  Get your requests in & uh the end of March, which we did.  Uh, but then it won't be, then the process takes, of going thru the cmte mark-up, going, passing the full House;  passing the full Senate;  then going thru the conference cmte;  coming back, the House votes up or down, & the conference has to support, as does the Senate.  & when they come to an agreement & that's all done, it goes to the president for his signature.  That can take upwards to 9 to 10 months (a few “wow's" are heard).  Um, it's usually what it could take. 

Last yr I don't think the Energy & Water Bill, Lee, was signed until, in, into Nov.  Uh so hopefully they'll get it signed a little bit sooner this yr, but uh, uh FY 01 starts in uh, uh FY 03 starts in uh Oct 1st.  & uh, um if they don't have the bill passed by then, they'll, they'll fund the gov't, at, at last yr's levels like they have been in the last 4 or 5 yrs.  So we're goin' up to meet on Wed, in, in an effort to get this money.  You know, it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to weigh in with your Senators, you know.  CLM: _ _ _ _ .  TH: & I think you've already done that.  So that's where we stand. 

JZ: Thank you, Tom.  Eric, maybe you can say a few words about the plan for the bond issue that uh VP is issuing for the remaining fiscal yr.  EM: Sure. The city has uh, effectively ran out of money in a project acct that they've been using to fund the levee, uh & that funding source ceased in Feb of last yr & the uh had an agreemt with the school dist to continue the funding from the, the levee project with what are called surplus funds, uh preparatory to a rebonding.  & we've um now taken the steps necessary &, & uh have submitted 'em to our bd of ald for um final approval we anticipate in uh mid July for this 3.2M bond dollar bond issue which we would anticipate uh taking us out to the completion of the levee with the local funding.  JZ:  So the city's working to get their uh cash requirement for the rest of the project _ _ _ _  fiscal yr. 

6/17/02 Levee - Section 4 of  9

# 4 on the agenda is uh discussing some of the things the COE is, is involved in to get us thru uh, thru construction & then remaining items 5, 6, 7 & 8 are really primarily sponsor responsibilities.  & uh, we are involved in doing the design work for our final uh section of levee, Item 4B, which involves quite a few unusual things, uh, with the glass plant material.  We have some relief wells in this, this contract as well.  & I think I'd like to have Pat or Greg go over this, go ahead & uh discuss these items.  Pat Conroy & Greg Bertoglio. 

Pat:  I'm gonna switch over & I'm gonna speak from this 2-page document titled Highlights of VP, Item 4B Design.  Jim's been talkin' from this, from this visual & the, as he said, the green is what's completed, yellow is what is yet to be completed & I've taken that & I've made it a little bit larger with more, with more detail on it to uh, & I hope the folks back there can see it.  Uh, a few, a few land marks, Hiway 141, excuse me, the Meramec River is flowing in this direction.  The Meramec is flowing downstream in that direction.  Here's Hiway 141 as it passes thru & right here is Marshall Ave.  Carol House Furniture is located right there.  Another landmark is the Burlington Northern RR, their bridge over the Meramec River is here.  Burlington Northern is right here.  Um, I always get this mixed up.  Pharoah, Pharoah St is here, that's 9th St on this side of Marshall Ave & Pharoah St on the south side of Marshall.  The uh, the Lions Club Log Cabin is in this vicinity & St. Louis County Simpson Pkwy is up, is up in this vicinity. 

Project, the Item 4B contract will start here & tie into the south end of the Union Pacific RR embankment.  It passes thru a part of town known as Arnold's Landing.  It passes under the Hiway 141 Hiway Bridge, continues behind the Meramec Valley Park Plaza, er Meramec Valley Plaza Shopping Ctr, ties into the previously completed RR closure structure across the Burlington Northern RR.  It continues north.  It continues east a little bit north up to here.  At this point, we're on the northern edge of the old Johnny Mac's Sports Complex; it's right thru here.  The levee crosses Pharoah, continues north & east up to Kena Ave & then it, it turns & runs north & ties into the, the existing end of the Item 3A construction.  Quite a few features along here.  Uh, if you can notice the, the part of the levee that's highlighted in yellow there & here, will be constructed of compacted earth fill, similar to what we've done in all, in the other parts of the levee, that are green.  That's all been constructed of high quality compacted earth fill

Thru this vicinity, we have these glass plant ruins that have been mentioned, uh built in 1906, or thereabouts, in that timeframe, the old St. Louis Plate Glass Co.  It did business for about 20 yrs.  They had a fire & they rebuilt the plant.  Then there was a flood.  Finally, the co decided that they had to pack their bags & leave.  Well, they've left behind all the foundation ruins & uh, if you're a citizen of VP, or you're familiar with the corporate boundaries of VP,  no doubt you're aware of all these old foundation ruins that exist in the ground.  Unfortunately, uh the, the levee center line passes right thru that & we cannot go river side of that because there are FEMA floodway issues that we must abide by.  We can't go landside of that because we need an area of landside of levee; it's highlighted in the blue.  We need to keep that area open to store stormwater. When, when the river's high, &, & a couple of things we call gravity drains are closed, we have to store all the rainwater that falls inside, in the interior of the levee.  We have to store that water until the river flood elevation drops enough that we can open these things called gravity drains & evacuate that, that ponded stormwater from behind it.  So, our, our levee centerline is pretty well fixed by other events. 

What we plan to do is, like I said, this part that's in yellow will be compacted clay.  The parts that are in orange, in this vicinity & also over here, we plan on demolishing those old concrete ruins & um, using something called, hiring a contractor to do something called a hammermill crusher to crush that concrete into a, almost like a crushed stone aggregate & make sure it's got enough fine, small, small particles in it.  We can compact it.  We're gonna compact it in, gonna form the, the basis of the levee.  It's not gonna be, the entire levee will not be built with this crushed material.  The inner core of the levee will be built with that crushed material & then we're going to place uh, a 5' thick layer of compacted clay on the riverside slope of that inner core.  Uh, 4' of compacted clay on the top, & 3' of compacted clay on the, on the landside slope.  We've done a lot of study of this.  I am, I'm confident it will work & we've also uh, we've done a lot of coordination with MDNR to get what they refer to as a Beneficial Use Permit.  Um, DNR considers these old glass plant ruins somewhat of a special waste & so normally, you would take all those ruins & haul 'em off to a landfill, but we're gonna, by doin' that, we'd use up a lot of the... (exchange tapes) 

Pat: …coordination of St. Louis County Health Dept & both of those agencies are on board.  We still owe them a few things, but they're quite satisfied with the way we're progressing.  So that's, that's a big feature of this particular project, is to, to, to crush that old concrete &, & use it in the levee. 

Um, thru Arnold's Landing, the, the top of the levee is going to be a full 70' wide!  That's substantially wider than ah existing construction that's out there.  This existing compacted earth fill levee has a 10' wide crown with a 1 on 3 side slopes.  The 1 on 3 slope means for every foot that you gain in height, you move over 3' for instance.  But this part of the levee will have a 70' wide crown.  This compacted earth fill will have a 10' wide crown, as, as usual.  This part of the levee will have a 20? (I think it was JZ: 30), 30' wide crown.  Uh, what we're doing here is we're, we're, we're making the lever, the levee broader, to uh, so that we can use this crushed material as construction material.  We're makin' the levee broader, a little wider to insure that it has the stability that we need.  & over here, we had some add'l space & we were able to take advantage of the add'l available space to make the levee wider in order that we could uh utilize more of the material that was over here in the glass plant ruins.  RC: Excuse me.  Uh, what's the toe-to-toe in Arnold's Landing?  Pat:  About 22' tall, 1 on 3 slopes x 6, that's 120, 132, about 200'.  RC:  200' toe-to-toe.  Thank you.  Pat: That's an estimate, Russ.  RC: That, that's ok.  

Pat: There's ano, this plan is, is, is complex enough as it is.  Uh, we are also dealing with a known TCE plume in the existing groundwater.  There's a um, there's an EPA Superfund Site somewhere up here around Benton  & 2nd St, the  Wainwright Industries.  & there's a TCE plume that originates up here around 2nd & Benton.  It's in the groundwater & DNR studies that plume, uh the westward extent comes out here to uh to the RR & the eastward extent is somewhere over here, right around just a little bit east of 5th St.  We're dealing with that as well.  It's in the groundwater.  Why, you say, are we concerned about that, uh, all the levee is just surface construction?

No, not all the levee is surface construction.  We have to excavate a portion of the levee landside in order to make this stormwater detention area.  When I do that, we increase the occurrence of what we call underseepage.  Um, the levee, if it's tall enough, it holds back the surface water, but when you're holdin' back 22' of river water on the river side of the levee, a lot of that water is, is infiltrating down thru the ground, in underneath the levee, & the, & the sandy Meramec aquaford, coming landside under the levee, then that water pressure exerts an, ererts an upward force on the, on the soils at the surface. 

What we have to install, can't see 'em, there are 28 very small dots right thru here; not the big ones.  There's 28 small dots along here & those are what we call relief wells.  Uh, they're, they're like an 8" diameter water well.  It's a piece of pipe that's installed vertically in the ground. The pipe has uh slots in it that are, that allow water in & then the water flows to, thru the pipe to the surface.  It reduces the pressure in the aquaford, maintains the integrity of the levee.  In order to, that's the part of the project that goes down in the ground & comes in, potentially, comes in contact with the TCE plume.  The City of VP has hired Purdy & Assoc.  They are working with MODNR to obtain necessary permits for the COE to install these relief wells & I've been workin' very closely with uh Purdy & Assoc.  They're quite confident that there will be no problems & that we'll be able to get this permit.  That's another thing that makes it a little complex. 

JZ: Pat, maybe you oughta mention the um, the borings that you're doing right now & to help with some of the design on relief wells, fact that we, we have uh an agreement with the city is gonna dispose of the uh _ _ _ _ _ _ _.  Pat: The blue dots that you can see from your position, are locations of add'l geotechnical exploration that I feel that I must complete, in order to complete the final design on these relief wells.  Uh, gonna be drilling, possibly encountering soils & ground water that are contaminated with TCE um &, there we, that's considered a, a hazardous, hazardous waste.  A lot of EPA protocols kick in when we're dealing with that.  So we send the, the COE drill crew out there. They will be accompanied by an industrial hygenist & that, & that industrial hygenist is going to um, if you will, monitor every sample, gonna be monitoring the grieving zone.  He's gonna be insuring the safety of the drillers & also he's gonna, gonna sample, er monitor every soil sample that the drillers bring to the surface, see if there's any measurable contaminants in there, & then if, if there are samples that are considered hazardous, they're gonna be put in special jars, maked as such.  Uh, they will be treated differently at the soils testing lab & any hazardous waste that's left  over after this, uh, after this exploration program, as Jim just mentioned, we have agreement with the City of VP.  The city will hire their own contractor & - JZ: No, they're gonna, they're gonna use our contractor uh to dispose of any _ _ _  -  Pat: Ok, properly dispose of those wastes.  JZ: They're gonna pay our contractor

RC: Mr. Chairman.  Could I ask him a quick question?  I'm, uh, my plain speaking is probably necessary here.  It seems like there's just been an enormous amt of engineering on 4A & I, I don't want to cast any dispersions here.  I want to ask a question that, that since I'm not an engineer, when you go to design & when you go to do the drawings, do you have to, do you go like 2 steps forward & then maybe one step back, when you run into something like an env'l problem, then you have to do a little redesign?  Uh, uh it just, I just want to understand; what are the things that you have to think about when you design?  &, & it would be helpful if you could just list a few of the items, so that it doesn't give the appearance that, that you're just designing until you get ready to retire?  Forgive me for being so blunt, but I think it, that's important, that, that we, that's, that we dismiss that, that, that fiction. 

Pat: Thanks.  Russ Causey & I have known each other for almost 12 yrs.  So um, I'm not surprised by his plain, blunt speaking. (several chuckle)   Ok, good question.   RC: Because I think you, you said something up here, uh Mr. Conroy, that, that everybody, a lot of people in this room understand, but all I want to know is when's it gonna be finished?  &, & so could you uh, could you explain the complications if you have 'em? 

Pat: Ok, Russ, the, the original uh, a # of things as geotechnical engineer that I get involved with is one, uh when we design this levee, make sure it's stable when it gets the, the floodwaters against it, ensure that those floodwaters don't cause any uh landslides in the levee slopes.  So I run what we call stability analysis to make sure.  Uh, but even tho before that, I do lay out the exploration programs, get the soil samples, run particular strength tests on the soil samples to see what are the engineering perameters, the soils we're building on.  Not only for the soils that are in place here where we propose to build the levee, but also the soils from Simpson Quarry that we'll be obtaining borrow, borrow thru from.  So even a lot of testing is done, a lot of exploration.  Another thing I concern myself with is the uh occurrence of underseepage, what I described, you know.  That, that levee embankment holds back the surface waters, but there's a substantial component of, of seepage that's goin' on underground.  Again, we have the tools & the knowledge to evaluate that & uh, it's, it's standard procedure on every levee design that we do.  As a geotechnical engineer for the Army COE, I know underseepage occurs. 

In fact I wrote an article for the uh, for the local city newsletter.  It was in the, it was called the Levee Critics Corner, er Levee Designers' Corner.  JZ:  I think there was one, one case where we had this design with, with no uh use of glass plant material, just over to this point.  But then the fact that we found the cost of disposal of this glass plant material was in the millions, I, I think we saved - RW: about $3M.  JZ: about $2M  by, by having this plan versus a, all - cut off by CLM: that was 100%, 100% - JZ: a clay levee, by taking this off to a landfill.  So there was, that was a major change in the design. 

Pat:  Russ, I'd like to answer, maybe give a different answer to your question.  In 1993, we published what we called a, a Feature Design Memorandum (refion?), & that was almost 10 yrs ago, & that was a design that we considered to be about 85 or 90% complete.  The way the COE designs it's major flood protection projects, we do an FDM level design & we do uh, another design, uh at the plans & specifications level.  That's when we're getting ready, we're, we're assembling the contract documents, things that we'll actually put out on, on the street for, you know, for, future use to bidders to bid on.  We take a second look at things in our FDM & uh, at that point we get even more info than we had at the FDM, before exploration. 

Uh, &, &, & things change in 10 years.  But Jim just mentioned the use of using this glass plant material inside the levee.  When we did the FDM, the FDM was, was designed assumin' that all that glass plant materials could be hauled off & (burned or buried?) in a local landfill.  We started lookin' at detailed cost estimates for disposal & the cost estimates were substantially higher than they were in (1990 or 199_?).  So that's when we looked for a different way, a more economical way, but a way that still uh provided the, the flood protection that you expected. 

CLM: Even before that, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  'cause FEMA came back & changed their position.  The reason they said you can't put the levee closer to the river, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.  Pat: Yeah, after the, after the 1993 floods.  JZ: Um, Greg, did you have some things to say about  _ _ _ _ _ _ _?  Greg: Yes.   JZ: We need to move ahead.  Pat: Greg, like to talk about gravity drains?  Greg:  Uhhh, yeah.  Pat: emergency vehicle access. 

6/17/02 Levee - Section 5 of  9

Greg: Those are just some of the items that always come up as we go thru, that manage to change our uh, approach & our schedule on some occasions.   _  _ _ _ .  What we have now, are some serious uh, drainage issues that deal with the uh, landside.  We've got some other drawings here that are pretty elaborate uh, structures uh, that we have identified for an area right here by 141, which takes all the water that runs down from the bill up here & comes down on the highway & currently is emptyin' out uh, into the river where we've got some elaborate work here.  We're going to continue draining that to a certain point & then we've gotta divert it back.  Uh our plan calls for boring & uh jacking underneath the RR embankment there & tying a drain into the uh detention pond over on this side.  Uh, the final details of that are not completed yet.  Uh, we do have experience with that thruout the COE & other offices; we can uh cash in on them for their experience. 

We currently have 2 of these other add'l structures over here, the 3rd St drain & then  the 5th St drain.  Uh, we've looked at it & those are pretty big structures.  Uh, I don't know what the cost is, but we've got a plan now.  I think we can reduce costs by comin' uh thru the levee & then havin' open channel flow rather than uh, uh the big structures.  The reason they're big & massive, & we'll show you the drawings later, is we have uh energy problems with the flows comin' thru with the normal stage of the Meramec being' down low.  Uh, we could start gettin' some uh scour action now that the river _ _ _ _ _ cutting back landward & next thing you know, we're cuttin' in close to the levee.  So uh, that's why they was designed that way initially.  Uh, we have looked at it.  We're thinkin' we may be able to avoid that a little bit & minimize that with what's goin' on.  One concern was the emergency road access.  I'm gonna jump back & forth 'cause uh, there's a lot of things we have to deal with. 

It's uh, we have drainage issues right up over this area, both on the east & west side of uh, Pharoah there.  I think we've got a solution over on the east side that's doable, would require some add'l uh construction ROW, but it wouldn't be permanent.  Uh, got a real problem with what our hydraulic engineer is sayin' over here, uh &, & we're lookin' into that.  MSD requires us to have a certain amt of fill over any pipes we put in & we're trying to meet their requirements, uh, & get that taken care of.  & I don't know if this is the point where we want to bring up all outstanding issues at the end here or  -  JZ: City drainage plan? 

Greg: Right. I want to make mention here that you know, rumor has it that uh, previous eng'g firm did an interior drainage study for the City of VP.  Uh, I don't know the results of that.  Uh, I've been told that the report is in-hand, but I don't know whose hand yet, but it seems to have gotten lost.  That study could go a long way to getting' us out of a design cri, uh crunch right here as well as uh make this project a little bit easier to get thru 'cause without, if I gotta put a 60" culvert in there to handle future drainage in what our drainage area is now, we can't make it work with MSD's requirements.  We need a lot of temporary uh driveway construction.  The businesses up there, uh wouldn't be conducive to doin' that, uh not till last, took a closer look at it.  Came back & I'm thinkin' that, uh I will be retired before we solve that one, if that's the case.  Uh, &, & that's what we have problems with right there.  Uh, anybody that lives in VP knows you have an interior drainage problem.  You get a heavy rain & you got water sittin' a lot of places.  We're trying to deal with that. 

EM: Specifically, you're talking about, it's some land just to the north of the uh ballparks & it's where uh, currently Kirschner Block has a facility -  Greg: You got blocks there.  I've seen a bunch of uh vehicles out there on one piece of property, uh like a salvage tow area, or whatever.  EM: & next door to that is  Simpson uh Sand & Gravel.  Greg: Right, &, & you have a lot of asphalt areas up there. Now our plan over on this side of Pharoah is to come in with some fill, 'cause their backyards drop off pretty, pretty drastically.  EM: It's Pyramid.  Up & down Pyramid.  Greg: Right, right along there & unless we get to their backyards, we get temporary construction, come in & fill that in, we've gotta have positive drainage.  We can't put a structure out there & then backwater on anybody else, so gotta design for that.  Uh, & we've got a pretty doable uh solution over here.  This one here is causin' uh you know, sending a flag up, a red flag up.  Gotta deal with that.  Therefore, I'm gonna make a plea again that if I could get a copy of that & see what uh may be proposed, uh or what we could work with, it would uh go a long way for the flood protection project. 

Uh, over here I'm gonna go, I'm gonna jump right back into the issue uh, that we've talked about for emergency access.  & some of the things that slow down the design & gettin' a final plan on it, uh out there on the streets, are some of these things that come in afterward, well, what if we did this or did that.  & we're now, at one point in time, we were gonna have the uh River Rd comin' all the way around, cause we gotta have access on this side of 141 for emergency vehicles. Firehouse sits right over here somewhere & uh, if the trains are comin' down the tracks, access is blocked over to here.  Uh so we gotta  make sure we got it comin' around & then over to this side.  So we're doin' some design work there now & I'm coordinating that with uh, I'm sure if we can uh make the fire dept happy, those police cars can get over there just as easy too.  So, get them big trucks over there, we'll be in good shape & that's one of our goals now; we gotta get that taken care of.  Uh, those are the outstanding design issues that I have from a civil side.  Uh, the, the drainage issues there & then uh the uh emergency access over here.  There's uh some of the stuff that's really out there yet.  The gravity drains uh, we've got a plan on paper that was approved, but we think we can uh do, do a better product & uh, save time & money & complete this. 

EM: There's one other feature I thought maybe you might want to mention because I thought it was fairly ingenious on your, you & Pat's part, & that is to minimize some property takings, you came up with an idea of putting sort of a berm around a lower area, er not a berm, disposing of putting a berm around the lower area where the cotton company is, uh, because we have a detention basin that is south of that.  Greg: That, that would be right over here?  EM: Yeah.

Greg: What we got here is uh, we have designed a detention pond into our system right along here. You can see that in blue.  & it's changed over the yrs because of the alignments, FEMA's changes & their requirements & what have you.  & once again, uh the way it was set up, uh with the recent surveys, they took these out after we got started.  So that's a low-lying area out there now.  Our detention pond would've backed water into there which would've required us to buy that land for the project. 

What we came up with was, uh a temporary construction easemt where we could fill that low area in, have positive drainage off the road into the detention pond, but then that would go back to ownership of the uh owner, once we had that done.  Basically what's gonna happen then is uh that will be an elevated higher area.  It will be up out of the uh detention pond limits so no water would back in there & it would be a considerably uh more usable piece of property for the landowner then, as well as givin' us an opportunity to uh, uh get some more of the material uh put in place over there.  So, what we're tryin' to minimize there as we can along the way, uh & that was one attempt that we did there.  This drawing doesn't show it precisely because that is an old survey right there.  Our latest surveys uh show the existing conditions out there. 

Uh, we've got the relocation uh issues that are uh on-going.  Some relocations have been done.  Hiway 141, we've got uh telephones on both sides there that uh we're workin' with.  Uh, we got uh some utilities goin' into the uh Sports Complex area.  A major concern is they're probably, what, a 12" gas line.   We have a rather large gas line over here.  Uh, I think the approach is we're going to construct the levee & then once that's done, the gas co can come out & they can come up & over the top of the levee, & then we'll put dirt over that & it'll be in good shape there. 

We have a uh rather large uh telephone cable runnin' over here, a fiber optic line over here which we're aware of.  & they've, uh they've located that one in there after we had the plan, so they were prepared & that one's encased in some pretty heavy concrete.  We're aware of it, so we're gonna make sure we don't bang into that when we do our inspection trench for the project comin' in thru there.  This is pretty much an abbreviated version.  I forget what I'm supposed to say, so that's what we have & I'll be around if, if you have questions on any of this stuff.  I've got a lot of other things here. 

I've got a detailed survey of the glass plant & I would like to caution everybody here that Pat once said to me, when we get above ground, we know what we have.  I like to fall back on that because we don't know for sure what's underground out here at that glass plant.  Got a lot of borings & samples & that, but we don't know every inch of that ground.  So we don't know what we're gonna encounter & we're gonna find stuff along the way.  MM: Have you ever, um tried to get the original blueprints or whatever, from when the glass factory was built?  Greg:  We've, we've tried to do some research into that.  Uh, it's it's kind of difficult & prior to me gettin' involved with the project, I know there were a couple people did a lot & Terry may be able to answer that a little more.  JZ: It's a little bit further down on the agenda, if you can wait.  MM: Ok.  Greg: Have any questions, I'll be uh _ _ _ _ _ sit back down. 

6/17/02 Levee - Section 6 of  9

JZ: Let me go down to 4B here on the agenda.  Pointing out that we have to do our design work as Pat & Greg were showing us, but we also need outside agency approval of some of this, some of this work.  & as Pat mentioned, we have uh permission from MODNR _ _ _ beneficial use, uh for work with our glass plant material, but they're also saying that they, they want to review our bid documents, our plans & specs & uh specifications.  They have to approve things like best management practices for uh the contractor being required to minimize erosion of excavated materials against washing from the site, mimimize air emissions during the process.  We have to take specific, have a plan for taking specific actions when material _ _ _  fails to meet the minimum putting in the levee or engineered fill.  If we run into something potentially hazardous, it has to be, has to be discussed in our plans & specs.  & there's air pollution permit required from the MODNR & from St. Louis County Health Dept.  We have a letter from St. L County Health Dept specifying some of the things they need to ah, to review before we award this contract.  So I'm just letting you know that that's part of our process, is to have uh basically a set of draft plans & specs out to these agencies for approval. 

Uh, #4C is we need outside approval of a plan for environmental mitigation.  That's something we haven't touched on yet really, but we need to get into it. Uh, this project as you see it, has significant negative env'l impacts & uh we had, we had originally, a Section 404 Permit for this project, certain conditions & the uh, at this point in time, after we get this 404 permit, um, updated & modified & approved before it uh expires in Dec.  So we've been working on a ah env'l mit plan & I'm gonna let Ken Dalrymple maybe talk about this env'l mit plan that he's helped develop with our team & with the City of VP officials. 

Ken: A little hand-out here, which maybe, maybe it'll help.  Uh, what, what really happened is that whenever the construction started (comments about his glasses), uh is that Grand Glaize Creek was channelized & Fishpot Creek was channelized, this particular portion right here, Grand Glaize here.   & then there's a whole host of bottomland hardwood trees that's been here around this glass plant, some of 'em quite large in size.  So this area has deforested of what we call bottomland hardwood plus it's got some wooded wetlands, this area right in here, which amounts to about 2 acres, 2.2 acres.  & then of course whenever this area here was constructed, it took out a whole bunch of trees or bottomland hardwoods we call 'em, in this area.  So in the process, it became quite substantial.  There was 60 acres of bottomland hardwoods that were destroyed, or will be destroyed.  & then there was about 10 point, 16.6 acres of stream mit that, that had been channelized.  We got different ways of calculating it. 

So anyway, I'm gonna pass this piece of paper around & uh hope you get a copy of it.  It's the last thing I wrote.  I don't have enough for everyone.  I didn't expect quite so many people.  At any rate, we, I've come up & I've worked with regulatory which is Mike Daily here, & several engineers, Pat Stephens;  & we've tried to come up with an idea of how we could put as much as possible back on the site of this mit.  & then of course we won't have enough area, so we're gonna have to go offsite for some mit. 

Uh to be real quick, I know you're not gonna be able to see it, uh but anyway I'd like to (JZ helps him hold up a large drawing).  This is Grand Glaize area & of course that's this deep green area right here & it was channelized the entire length, basically a little bit further, 3 sheets of this fit together.  But our plan is to restore some of the bottom hardwood in this area & also restore a little bit of wooded wetland.  So there's a, an area in here that's got a lot of riprap on.  We're going to cover that area with material & part of we're gonna plant to grasses & part of it, we're gonna plant to trees, & of course, on this particular plan, it depicts this.  So in the area, we're going to end up with about 4 acres of stream mit back on the site of about 6 acres that was destroyed here.

DC: I've got a question.  How you gonna keep that material & trees on that riprap bank?  Ken: The, this material here is going to be basically just filtered down in the cracks, actually it's got grass from  growin'.  This is the inside curve & we're actually - DC: of the mit gone? (Ken evidently doesn't hear DC) Ken:.. fall into the cracks & we're gonna plant - JZ: It's mainly on the top ground slope of the uh of the channel.  It's somewhat mainly on top of - Ken: There'll be an area down here that, right along the stream, that, that won't have anything done to it.

MsP:  Ken, how far down, what flood frequency are you takin' the cover material _ _ ?  Ken:  Well, it'll probably be basically, about a 2-yr frequency, won't be _ _ _.   MsP: We have experienced project - cut off by DC: Because, you know at Grand Glaize, when you get a rain on the Grand Glaize, uh you might wind up with all that material right down in Simpson Lake.  Ken: We're plannin' on not putting enough on there to, to hopefully, & then they'll hopefully get enough material established on it.  So anyway, we can actually do something out here to get vegetation reestablished.  This riprap's like 30" deep & it makes a real calcareous - cut off by DC: We got a lot of trees growin' on it now.  Ken: Right.  So we, it'll take it yrs, it'll finally start growing something 20, 30 yrs from now, but what we're tryin' to do is, is make mother nature speed up the process a little bit.  & basically, they'll still be probably rocks that you can actually see stickin' out of the, out of the material. 

MsP: There is a project up in Minnesota where we did quite a bit of this, where we topped the riprap with soil & then plant materials.  & I always figured it would end up down stream when it rained.  & we had a pretty good flood on it 2 yrs ago & that material held.   It's been in place now for 10 yrs up there & it has held up very, very well.  DC: Well, if you, if you'd go look at the area right now, we have this, we put this uh mit pond in.  We have the levee between that & it uh, the idea of it was that we would put that riprap in there & extend it on further down because we know that that's gonna eat it out.  It's eat it out on the uh, uh mit, or the detention area side uh pretty good.  Uh, & eventually, uh I will predict & probably in the next 10 yrs, that you won't have an island between the creek & the mit pond if it keeps goin' the way it is.  Because when you, you funnel this water, this isn't a, a, ah area that spreads out.  When it comes underneath the uh Burl No tracks, it also comes up to the Union Pac tracks.  It's just like a big funnel that dumps it out at the end of this thing & it makes a huge curve as you can see on this drawing & that water churns down thru there. 

Uh, when the contractor was building this thing, he surmised that he could put in a pipe & uh use it as a road.  Uh, he brought in a huge pipe, probably 7, 8' high.  He put it in on a Fri;  Sat afternoon we had a rain.  Uh, the fella went down Sun, & the pipe had moved approx 200' down the creek & was parallel to the creek.  The creek was runnin' thru the pipe, again with no road, but 200' down.  So you can, you can imagine how much water comes thru this little creek.  This is not a little creek.  It should be the Grand Glaize River!  Ah, the watershed of this thing goin' from Ballwin, Manchester, Town & Ctry, up to Creve Coeur, Kirkwood & uh, every little stream that runs down thru there.  So you have to imagine the amt of water that we're puttin' into this Grand Glaize Creek. 

JZ: Well, one part of the plan is put some riprap up along there.  DC: We put that riprap on it to keep that bank from washin' that uh, that uh levee out, & I mean, I hope, I'm sayin' that, that's a good idea.  Put that mit in there if you can, but boy, don't put too much dirt on that thing & let them trees just grow wild in there & uh, because this little creek churns.  If you've never been, if you've never been on that creek, I've lived, I lived in that area for yrs, & one of the floods that happened back in about 1957 & 58, was not from the river.  It was from the Grand Glaize Creek & there was a huge bank over there at that time & it came all thru the valley, City of VP & flooded the whole lower end out with about, oh I'd say maybe 3 to foot of water.  & that creek goes wild at certain times.  I mean it's kind of a free flowing stream & it's a nice little creek, but when it gets rain & you get rain on the whole watershed, you're, you've got a mass of water.  If you've never been there, sometime just uh, when after we have a, a good 2 & a 3" rain, come down to VP & drive down 6th St & go up on the levee & see, & see what's happenin' cause you're gonna see plenty of water!  (a few comment affirmatively)  It runs pretty good, doesn't it! 

Ken:  Well, anyway -  DC: Sorry.   Ken:… is to make this area - DC: I hope you can do it.  I, I really hope you can do it.  Ken: ...a little more natural than it does today.  I don't know whether you'be been been down there recently or not, but it doesn't look too natural today.  But we're gonna try to replant a bunch of the trees along the stream. We're going to revegetate some of these islands in this containment berm down thru the middle & we're even gonna put some ripple structure down here in the stream so we'll have a full ripple effect.  Now this has changed since the original design of this project because the levee on the Simpson Lake was raised.  So actually Simpson Lake water is clear up into this area right here in the pool area.  But anyway, we're gonna plant that.

Then in this detention area, which is this particular area here, we, we need to find somewhere or have to purchase it offsite, at least 6.6 acres of wetland, wooded wetland.  & we think we've come up with a plan here that where we can actually put this wooded wetland back on site & we're gonna use the Simpson Lake detention area to do that.  To be able to still maintain the storage & to have trees in there, we're actually lowering part of this detention area, actually 6 acres of it & then planting trees back into that site.  _ _ _ _ _ (strange noises) gonna allow you to go ahead & mow into this area, uh even tho it's probably not totally env'ly friendly, but you can still maintain this area by mowing & actually the whole thing will be planted with trees.  Only the 6 acres, the rest of it excluded, that's gonna be mit bottomland hardwood.  EM: Ken, we're gonna call that by the way, the Dalrymple Swamp in there.  Ken: The Dalrymple Swamp. 

EM: Just out of curiosity, what's that, that's not gonna be cattails, an, an area that's constantly irrigated, is it, or what's, what's it gonna look like?   Ken: Well, if you maintain it, it's going to be basically, it's gonna be some type of grass, _ _ _ _ _ _ _  & then your trees.  & after the trees get larger & it starts a canopy, then you won't have a whole lot of other vegetation _ _ _ _ _ _ _  like most forests, a low canopy of  - 

EM: So it's really not gonna be a swamp?  Ken: No, it shouldn't be because normally this area will drain into here, but during the summer naturally, it shouldn't probably completely dry out because the only water it's going to get is rainwater that comes from a pretty small area, basically, your park area back there, part of it goes down a ways.  There's not a lot of area, but it's actually been draining.  So it should & then of course the detention area's only about 6" lower than what'd run out anyway & over time, that'll fill a little bit so basically probably have less than 4" 20 yrs from now, but it'll still maintain moisture in there & be the ultimate wetland. 

EM: That's probably about 14 acres I think in size & you're gonna need about half of it.  Ken: Right.  JZ: Half of it will be the wooded wetland, but the rest would be - RW: bottomland hardwood  Ken: The rest would be tree filled.  It'll be bottomland hardwood.   EM: So the whole, all 14 acres?  Ken: Yeah, to you, the whole thing's true.  & you, & you'll treat the whole area the same basically.  (a few talk inaudibly at once a few seconds) Ken:..Grand Glaize Creek here.  Anything 50' beyond the toe of the levee, we can restore back _ _ _ _ .  There'll be a little bit of it here along the Grand Glaize Creek.  Down on, down on Fishpot Creek, we need some work down here so you can have some credits back against the credit that you've lost after it was channelized.  Anyway (pause) -

JZ: (difficult to hear) This is what, you know this, we had a mtg with uh Col McKinney & the _ _ _ uh, Paul Purdy & this is kind of what we've come up with subsequent to that mtg, uh - (someone whispers inaudibly _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ).   Ken:  For you that are not familiar, there are 60 acres that was destroyed, or taken out before construction, than the city has purchased or they owned already, anyway, they put easemt on 60 acres that's part of, it's up Fishpot Creek here 30 acres.  Basically, it's 30 acres up the Meramec that we're - I've got a picture of it too if anybody's interested.

However, that's preservation & we usually don't take something just to preserve it, so these little pieces around in here that are in this area, the rest is bottomland hardwood, bottomland hardwood here & a few over here, are actually restoring at least some acreage of that bottomland hardwood that was destroyed.  & then hopefully, it, it'll end up being a better system than we originally had.  Now then there's still 10 acres of stream mit that will have to be done offsite somewhere.  & there's several options there, however, we recommend uh going to a stream mit bank.  That probably would be your best option in this case. There is one in the vicinity & it is in the watershed.  So if you look in here, I've actually put in here, that probably that would be your best alternative would be to go to stream mit banks.  Uh, this hand-out I gave you should have nearly everything you need as far as acres, etc, etc, in it & with that, I'll sit down & let you get - 

JZ: Did you say anything about the uh Fishpot Creek _ _ _ _ _ ?  Ken: Well, I can.  RW: You don't have a drawing on that in here, do you?  (No answer is heard)  Ken:  Fishpot Creek came down here & then it actually  swung clear on the other side of the levee.  I can't see it here & it comes back in I think around like this.  It's, in fact it was twice as long as it is thick. 

What we're proposing to do is for some mit maybe, right now is channelize it straight down thru here.  We're going to reopen this whole channel.  There's an old channel right down here.  We're gonna reopen it & let the creek split here if it wants to & flow back thru this old channel as well as replant the top of some of this riprap area in here, theoretically up above the riprap, right on the top.  & then we're gonna let any native vegetation that wants to, come in on this side or on the leeward side of the, the waterflow here.  & so this area should revegetate.  It  should provide some thermal help to the temperature of the water & it'll take time.  It'll take 20 yrs for it to really look right, but it'll start looking similar to what it looks like just above here where it has been channelized.  So we're getting 2 acres of stream credits for this amount of work.  Now on the levee side, the levee is so close to, er the creek is so close to the levee that there's no room for the trees on the levee side.  Any questions?  

Mike D: It's not a question so much, but we have to still discuss conservation easemts that need to be put on these areas.  We have a problem right now with the Grand Glaize Creek area because it's also a RR easemt which kind of throws out any kind of easemt mit because apparently that's what it's for; it's the RR easemt.  We're talking about putting a conservation easemt _ _ _  so even in Simpson Lake, Ken & I worked out as much as we can give you for the bucks.  That's, basically, you're getting as many credits env'ly as we can possibly squeeze into this area. There's just no other way that I can give you any more credit.  Ken: Let me, let me introduce, this is Mike Daily. He's in regulatory & he's the guy that I've gotta satisfy as far as getting' a 404 permit.  I'm basically trying to satisfy the problems that are involved out there to be able to get a 404 permit for any construction out here.  & so, Mike is the one that I'm tryin' to satisfy in this case, along with about 5 other gov't agencies & so we work together closely.  & he's got a few issues yet that we've gotta work thru _ _ _ _ .

6/17/02 Levee - Section 7 of  9  

EM:  I, I, Ken, let me add, just clarify what you're talking about.  Um, with the detention basins, there's 2 of 'em that, um is a possiblity for future development uh, down the line.  Um, you're not seeking a, a conservation easemt on those rockwoods, are ya?  Mike D:  On Simpson Lake, I would have to.  To give you any credit at all, I have to.  JZ: In order, when you have a mit area, they want it to be set aside in conservation easemt, so that, so it would guarantee that it will stay as a mit area well into the future, basically. 

EM: Well, I, I mean what if somebody wants to come in &, & buy that from the city, put in wells uh to, to obviate the need for a detention basin there?  I mean couldn't, I'm assuming we can make a provision where they can do mit in lieu - cut off by Mike D: No, actually mit is to offset the impact that you've got up there.  So if allow them to do that, then you've just taken away your mit.  So what you're saying is, - cut off by EM: Well, I mean they could go out - Mike D:  you want to give us mit, but you want to take it back at some time in the future.  EM: I mean they could go out & get a bank or a whatever & - Mike D: Well, yeah, uh generally what's happened in the past, if you break a conservation easemt on a mit area, you're talkin' 10 to 1.  EM: Wow!  Holy cow!! 

Mike D: They, they don't want to get you into that habit.  I mean honestly, that's an env'l point of view.  I mean why would we allow you to, to mitigate an impact area & then turn around & say ok, well 3 yrs from down the road, aw forget it;  just blow it off.  If we start that, then we got a problem.  DM: Well, the thing is 10 acres for every 1 we would take out of there?  CLM: Where'd that figure come from, Mike?  Mike D: That's just what they've come up with.  I mean it's, ah, the only time it's ever been attempted that I know of is recently with one of the casinos over in St. Charles County & the figure that came out of those meetings was 10 to 1. 

CLM: Seems to me that you would not want to encourage people swaping off, but at the same time, if you were given a proposal where you got equal resources, ideally in a new area, I don't understand the logic of requiring any greater ratio than what was required initially.  Mike D: Uh, well, for one, we never do it as well as mother nature did in the first place.  So those 6.6 acres that we have right there are not as good as what we started out with.  I mean what we've done here is, I've given you credit on a ratio that's usually lower than what we normally do, just to allow this.  CLM: Yeah, but it's all very arbitrary tho.  Mike D: True.  CLM: What I'm saying is, I think we shouldn't rule that out.  (exchange tapes) 

CLM:… unless the agreemt is reached among the parties, to substitute something for that.  Mike D: Well, there again, that's what I said, the, in the past, the, the theory that they came up with, & I mean that may not stick for this particular area, but you know, it doesn't make any sense for us to give credit for a mit area & then turn around & say well we realize that 5 yrs from now,  _ _ _ _ _ .  CLM: Unless there's an offset _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .  JZ: I think we've all made our points here.  We normally, we wequire, we require a conservation easemt at a certain angle, & regulatory uh has to agree to it, & if the attorneys will agree to _ _ _ _ _ _ .  Uh, I guess maybe there are exceptions, & Eric I guess there maybe could be exceptions, but ramifications are - CLM: Sometimes something is _ _ _  as long as we know what to do.  (After this mit discussion, the tapes become more audible, except as noted.)  JZ: I think we ought to move ahead. 

 DC: I've got one question, Eric. (inaudible background whispers)  We've got that big borrow area on the outside of the levee down between Kena, on Pharoah, Kena &, & that area there.  What are they gonna use that for?  Is that gonna be a - Greg:  I have not made a determination if they need to borrow out of there for this final levee yet or not.  DC: Ok.  Greg:  It's still bein' shown there.  Um I'm hopin' we can avoid that right now so we do not disturb any add'l areas.  But until I can get my final numbers done, I don't know if we need that yet.  DC: Could that be used as a, as a mit area if you - Greg: If you knock a tree out of there, you gotta mitigate for that.  So if we leave it alone, we don't have any more harm.  DC: I mean if you do have to borrow, you're gonna not, could, that could be considered some mit area in that, if we do have to disturb that piece of property.  That's a pretty good area.  Greg: We could go back in as that, yes, but right now, I'm tryin' to avoid touchin' anything there until we seal the issue.    DC: I know you told me that before you were trying to avoid it, but I just wanted - cut off by JZ.   (At about this point, I left my tape recorder running out on the table where it's been the whole time, & went to feed pkg meter.)

JZ:  The next item on the agenda (CLM & EM are mumbling in the background) is historic preservation, & uh, uh the State -  Terry: Hey, Jim. (JZ evidently doesn't hear Terry.)  JZ: Historic Preservation office kind of weighed-in on the contaminents in this glass plant.  Terry: Got a comment for you.  I noticed, is this being tape recorded over here?  JZ: Yes.  Terry:  Is that, is that what you want, part of the meeting agenda?  (someone says:  not bein' taped now)  JZ: Uh: This lady has come to every um levee board meeting & records - DC: She tapes our levee meetings.  Terry:  Is it ok?   JZ: It's ok with me.  Terry:  Fine, Ok.  (Someone whispers “turn it off", but no one does.)  I'll uh, -  JZ: This is Terry Norris.

Terry:  Be uh precise about what the uh, the historic properties concerns here.  Uh, whenever the Fed Gov't is either involved in a project or a license for a project, one of the hoops we have to jump thru, the agency has to jump thru, is ah historic properties coordination.  That would be archaeological or ah standing historic structure inventories.  Uh, it was one of the things we did at VP initially, uh 15 yrs ago;  did a survey of the alignment;  found a # of pre-historic archaeological sites;  uh worked around those;  uh noted the uh the, the glass plant, but uh, that was not a, that was not an issue at that time

Uh, the uh, in the intervening yrs when the uh the 404 Permit issue came up, uh the uh State Historic Preservation officer at the DNR surfaced that as an item of concern.  Uh we, we uh, uh began negotiations or uh coordination with them about that.  Uh they have uh they have expressed interest in this area.  What we're going to do, in fact we're going to meet with them, uh & meet with uh 6 members of the uh, the uh, the MDNR out there on site tomorrow at 10:00 in the morning.  Uh what I envision is going to, we, we have to do 3 things, originally 3 things, it's probably just gonna be 2 now.  Uh they uh wanted an archival investigation & historic uh literature search about uh, to find out & determine as much as we could about that glass plant.  Uh this we've done, produced a document on it. 

Uh this is, question was asked uh earlier about blueprints from the uh earlier plant, if we could tell anything about the subsurface nature of it.   Unfortunately, it was just a plan view, it was just a map of the surface of it & we know what, we got a pretty good idea uh what uh what is out there, what the foundations represent, but really don't have any idea about uh, I, I don't, just from what we've come up with in our, & there might be some air shafts, but I don't think they're gonna be deep, but I guess you'll find out about, about that. 

But uh anyway, so we've got this, &, & it's the 2nd component of what we're going to, remaining & outstanding uh issue is we were, are going to have to do, uh is do some uh historic properties photographs, some uh, uh historic american bldg survey photographs, which is a special kind of photography.  & we're gonna, we're gonna identify, probably do 15 or 20 photographs of different features out here.  Uh, this'll be accomplished uh either this summer or early fall, uh won't affect the uh, won't affect the  construction schedule.  We'll be outta the way at that time.  Thought there was going to be some archaeology, but our archival investigations, the uh, the literature review we did uh would indicate that there probably wouldn't be anything more archaeological significance out there.  So, that's what we're uh, that's what we're about. 

& this is uh, we're going to have a report that'll be uh not only everything that's been written to this point about the, the historic documents about the glass plant,  we'll, we'll combine those with the photographs that we'll take & there'll be a, a document.  There'll be something that maybe, I think probably will be of some interest to the folks at VP.  I'll get you copies of that. 

EM: Is your intern still around?  Terry: Uh, she's around uh in the, in the big sense, but not in our office.  Ah, Alex uh was on the Dept of Army money.  It didn't cost uh the COE anything & she produced this, this document on the uh, I guess she gave you a copy of that.  EM: Yeah, I'm still hopin' maybe that she could come out & make some sort of power point lecture - Terry: Oh, she's going - we've already talked about that. EM: Oh great, you bet. Terry: So, yeah, she's - any time!  EM: It's an impressive report. It was entertaining! 

DM: How much will the city, city have to do anything, or what's required before we can go ahead & - Terry: This is 100% fed cost on the uh, uh on this investigation & it would - JZ: But it will cost, the cost sharing, the project cost - Terry: Oh, the, what we, the outstanding work we got to do, & I suspect the contract, & it will depend a little bit on what we talked about uh, I envision something around $10,000, 10 - $15,000 contract of this uh, uh the photographic documentation.

 DM: & once you've done the documentation, can the COE, would the construction company go in & start removing the - JZ: Well, we have to take it - Terry: Well, the, the, the, there's a uh, there's a tiered process.  We get together with the state & uh what this all has to do with, is properties that are eligible for or included on the Nat'l Register of Historic Places.  Uh, the, the state has expressed a, a, made the determination, er at least informally, that they thought that this would, under other circumstances had this bldg been somewhere else, that it would be uh something that they would've eleva, uh it would've nominated for eligibility in the Nat'l RegisterWhen that happens, which means we're gonna, I, I will have to coordinate & uh produce a document, a memorandum agreemt, with this, the uh, an outfit in Washington called, it's an executive branch, uh, uh office, the Advisory Council on this work preservation.  We'll have to produce a memorandum agreemt.  We'll be a signatory to it & you will.  It says, uh yes, this, this plant is such & such.  Uh, we will uh, uh, & this is the project that's going to affect it & these are the steps we're going to do to mitigate the uh, the damage to it.  By mit, it will be the detailed photographs.  At the end of that process, when we get those photographs, uh everybody signs off on it.  It's, it's as if everything that's important about that plant is contained in the report & on the photographs, so.

DM: & once you've taken your documents, got the document completed, then we can go ahead & - Terry: Yes, yes, & everything that I've, that I've talked to about them at this point, uh indicates that that's exactly the way they feel about it.  DM: Alright, thank you. 

6/17/02 Levee - Section 8 of  9

JZ: The last item under 4, is the fact that we have to cut down trees, uh, basic during the uh winter months, uh fall, er late fall & the winter months to avoid the nesting season which I think starts April 1st.   & I'm just pointing out, that's something that we have to do is to award a contract to uh fell the trees during this period, so that we don't have a, a major delay in our construction contract because we're waiting for ah to be able to cut down trees.  So we're planning on having a second uh, a separate contract is to cut down all the trees that are in the area inside of 4B to award the contract in the Nov timeframe, Nov '02, & resolve that problem. 

Let's go on to it's 5, 6, 7 & 8.  Uh, _  _ _  again, we're trying to discuss all the things that have to be done for us to uh advertise & award a construction contract for the last segment of the levee.  One of the things there is, the city has to acquire the lands & easements, all the lands & easements needed to do this construction.  I know the city's already acquired the vast majority of those.  Uh, we discussed uh several times I guess, the fact that uh there's only what half a dozen or so parcels remaining, Eric?  You want to give an update on that? 

EM: Sure. Uh, when the COE completes a design for a segment of the levee, they turn that design over to the engineers for the city & the city engineers then survey the area & define it, uh according to the existing parcels of land down in the area.  Uh, they draft legal descriptions & determine that the type &, & nature of the, the property interest required, wh, whether it's (adjoining or a joining?) achesement (I presume - temporary easemt) or construction easemt, or a permanent easemt or a taking in fee.

&, & the uh, aerial photo that's in front of me, uh represents the land that the city's acquired thus far, uh with a couple exceptions.  Uh, the area where the ball diamond is, should be blocked out because the city has acquired all of this, uh as well as the area behind the shopping center.  Uh, the city has also acquired that, but they were left in so you could get some orientation on the map. 

You'll see that, that the city really has acquired nearly all the ROW commencing in up, looking at my upper right-hand corner of the map where the uh closure structure is for St. Louis Ave & just really trace it down where it comes to uh, down Kena St to the uh east & then it comes down ta, ta Pyramid St is the first street, the 2nd street is uh, uh Oasis I believe, & then there's Ocyra Sts, but the city has acquired nearly all, all the blocks of land in there.  Uh, I think there's uh actually 2 tracts that, that uh it has yet to get some interest in.  There are some temporary construction easemts & temporary fill easemts, uh they're really it's the same thing that are needed in backyards that, that we talked about.  & then continuing to the west, uh Greg Bertoglio talked about the drainage issues in, in the areas just to the north of the uh ballfields &, & that's the, the ones that are uh owned by uh Kirchner Block &, & Simpson Sand & gravel.  & I guess that's still a work in progress from what I understand, final design is pen, pending some surveys. 

Um, still need to get a uh temporary construction easemt from the uh cotton company.  Really, th, there shouldn't be a problem with that is we're actually doing a substantial benefit to their property by filling it, uh higher than it is so, so rather than being in a depressed area now, it's going to be at grade with the rest of that plant & uh, we have uh I believe an agreemt in principle with uh, uh Mr. Halamicek, uh for uh the property next to the Burlington Northern RR ROW.

& uh, Arnold's uh Grove, we're actually in condemnation uh with uh TWO property owners in that area right now & we're awaiting uh, legal descriptions before we can sit down & talk with Mrs. Morris (sure surprised me!) & Mr. McGhee & uh be able to quantify uh what, what needs are there.  Pat:  Eric, I notice over in Arnold's Landing, I got 2 blue dots over in Arnold's Landing.  The blue dot on the right, I've located that on Arnold Lane.  Is that city property?  that street?  EM:  No.  Pat: Oh, it's not?  EM:  No. The uh properties go to the center line of that street.  That's a private street.  Pat:  Ok, alright. The uh blue dot on the left, fairly certain the city's already acquired that. That's the one down - EM: &, & they have.  

MM:  Excuse me, Eric, you mentioned my property & McGhee's.  What about Ed Harrawood's?  His property's right in the middle of mine & McGhee's.  EM: Yeah, his property's in condemnation.  (10 seconds of silence)

JZ: Uh, we also have uh some RR's, we need easemts from 2 RR's.  EM: Yes I do.  Uh, we need uh I guess a boring license, a right to bore under the, the RR tracks for a uh, a pipeline in the Arnold's Grove area that'll go to the detention basin.  Greg: Right, right.  EM: & uh, careful don't lazer Harry (as someone uses a lazer pointer at the map) uh, we also, where the, the levee will actually go onto the embankments of the RR's, we'll have to have permanent licenses or easemts from uh those entities &, & those, those'll be in the works as soon as we get uh legal descriptions on that property as well.  Kirk, do you wanna say anything?  Kirk is our, our engineering, uh our represetnative from our engineer.  He's really the guy that has all the plans that the COE has.  He's working uh diligently I know on the effort.

Kirk:  Your surveyor (inaudible for almost 15 seconds.)    JZ: As far as our project schedule is concerned, I, I have to mention that um, that Eric is of the opinion that all the, all the uh real estate requiremts will be assembled by Nov & will allow us to advertise, uh advertisemt of the constrcution contract, but the COE at this point in time, thinks that there's delays that may be coming our way from RR's & so forth & we're thinking it may take another 3 months for the city to acquire the real estate _ _ _ _  contracts.  So our, our best estimate at this point in time is Feb _ _ _  & that's significant.  & I certainly hope & we hope the city is right on this, but it would uh, would delay our uh advertising award of a, of a construction contract till June & we show a delay till next Feb. 

EM:  & you indicated that would have some impact upon your fiscal budget _ _ .  JZ: That would have an impact on our _ _ _ _ .   TH: June of '03, right?   JZ: Right.  TH: Right. Are you talkin' about June of '03?  or June of 0 - JZ: Right, right.  CLM: If this would happen - cut off by JZ: That would impact our - TH: as opposed to Feb?  JZ: Our goal is to use fed $ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .  CLM:  But Jim, the COE is still prepared to move with that schedule if the city does get everything in they require before we have to get that contract _ _ _ _ _ _.  You're not automatically now saying we're not gonna do anything till - JZ:  No, we're not. There's enough things to work on _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. 

CLM:  Before we get away from the env'l _ _ _ _, I think we would be remiss if I didn't point out that  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ initially has _ _ _ expenses _ _ _ _  architectural env'l requiremts & uh the COE _ _ _  Ken & Mike _ _ _  sit down & worked out things so they were able to uh help us minimize the requiremts & still _ _  architectural env'l _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. 

DM: Jim, did you ever award a contract - you said originally it was gonna be Nov this yr, then it slipped to Feb, now you're saying you think it could be as late as June of next yr?   JZ: Yes.  DM:  Is that based on the city not getting land as soon as you thought, or on what other - JZ:  Ok.  In order to uh, if we would get the land in, in Nov, we would have award, advertising date in Nov of 02, late Nov date, & then we would award the contracts in Feb, Feb of 03. That, that assumes that uh, something that I've never really promised that we're gonna have our design done in Oct, but I'm certainly gonna try to get it done in Oct.  There's certainly some concerns about that.  So let's be optimists. 

DM: The design of Oc, design completion by this Oct is possible, what, for, potential _ _ _  this is Jan.  What do you think _ _ _ ?   JZ: I, I really haven't _ _ _  to this schedule.  We're, we're working to get it done, but I - DM: Right now you're thinking design by Oct of this yr, right?   JZ: That's as soon as it's possible. _ _ _ _ .   Um, if, if the land is not acquired until, till late Feb, then we have a new schedule that would, would show an advertisemt uh in early March & open, open the bids in May & award the contract in June. 

RC: If I might ask, uh just so I can understand the, the activity of everybody in this room, uh are, are, is uh, is there sort of like a, a core group of individuals, no pun intended, that you have little spokes going out from that come back into it, or are you sorta overseeing, uh how?   I'm just kind of, I'm tryin' to figure out where Mr. Zerenga fits with Mr. Conroy so that I have some, it, how does that? 

JZ: I'm the project mgr.  Uh, there's a core group of people that are working on this.  Uh, we need to discipline.  We have civil eng'g, Greg Bertoglio, Pat Conroy & _ _ _ _ _ .  We're all working together - real estate.  RC: So you have env'l, you have a real estate - Greg: geotech, civil, regulatory - RC: geotech, civil, - JZ: structural, & there's a structural eng'g.  (a few talk at once naming the departmts)  RC: Hydraulics, ok. JZ: When we get to construction, then they're involved in some of the review before we get to construction, make sure - cut off by RC:  &, & all these are somewhat interconnected with each other?  JZ: Right, well, - 

RC: interdependent, if you will.  & now the city, basicallly, has their LERRDS, they, their actual is basically the (grabbing or granting?) the land, & easemts, the ROW's, that type of thing, is that correct?  JZ: Yes, that's right.  RC: That's sort of, ok, ok.  JZ: But there's a lot of interaction between the 2 actually, Russ, because for example, the city has to get a real estate agreemt with the RR, but the RR wants to see our plans before they'll - RC: So it's a bit of a, it's a bit of an intersection.  JZ: Right.  RC: Alright, thank you. 

JZ: One of the other things on # uh 6 here, is the city has to complete the relocations assoc'd with the project.  Pat Conroy's talked a little bit about the remaining relocations.  I see Eric's stepped out for - he's well aware of that.  Uh, #7 here (JZ pauses during EM's return),  Eric, we were just talkin' about the city doing the relocations for uh this project & we discussed that Pat Conroy's talked about it. You talked about it a little bit, about what relocations needed to be completed. 

Uh, #7 on the agenda, is the uh fact that in Arnold's Landing, right over here, there's a need for a Phase 2 Hazardous & Toxic Waste Study.  We, we've done a Phase 1 Study.  The COE did this.  It recommends a Phase 2 Study because of certain problems that are found out there.  Uh, - EM:  Now, now that we're actually in litigation, I'll be able to ask the COE for permission because the - cut off by JZ: What is the timing on that, Eric?  EM: Well, 1st I've gotta get an answer back from the other side.  Uh, would anticipate that within a matter of 30 days.  Uh, we'll have a hearing on whether or not the condemnation that's authorized by law, & legally necessary, uh probably within another 60 days or in 90.  Uh, at that point, I can go ahead & move once I get authorization, I can move for uh a right of entry onto land.  So maybe we're looking at um 90 to 120 day.  Pat: From today?  

EM: Yeah. It may be before that. I just, thus far the attorney - cut off by JZ: For those of you who don't know what the problem is, there's, there's a potential hazardous toxic waste site that needs to be investigated in Arnold's Landing.  Property owner won't let investigators on their property, so if we have a right of entry, - EM: The attorney said buy me, buy me as is & the heck with your inspections.  Pat:  So, Jim, would that, that will, that'll control my exploration?  JZ:  I think - cut off by EM: Unless you go down in the dead of the night & (everyone laughs & someone says, don't tell anybody about it.).  MM:  I wouldn't advise that (& also laughs).  JZ: Pat, I think your exploration is for a different purpose & you can pick places that are not, uh not expected to be a problem there.  Once the city has the right of, the right of entry, then they're gonna proceed.  The city is gonna proceed with the Phase 3 (sounded like 3, but I checked with JZ & there are [just] 2) HTRW Study. 

Uh, there's a local cooperation for those of you who don't know, there's a Local Cooperation Agreement between the city & the COE that describes the responsibilities.  & one of the things it does is say that there's quite a few paragraphs about hazardous & toxic wastes.  & there's a special waste called circle of waste, uh that uh would require the city to take on investigations pertaining to a circle of waste the city has to come pay for disposal.  All this is being done based on an agreemt & I guess that brings us to the last item on the agenda.  Uh again, these borings that Pat Conroy is, is uh ready to write the contract on, we've already reached agreemt with the city to pay.  Eric, you have my memorandum on that $7000 estimated cost for the school.  EM: Right, & the board's gonna consider that tonight.  It's, it's one of them in their packet. 

6/17/02 Levee - Section 9 of  9

JZ: Well, it's uh almost 2 hrs after we started here & I think we've gone thru pretty much status um where we stand.  There's really a lot of work that needs to be completed here.  Uh, are there any discussions or questions?  EM: I, I want to thank you & the COE for making yourselves available.  I know you all are working on uh a lot of projects, & uh this was certainly instructive to I know the, the mayor & board of ald & the levee cmsn.  I, I really do appreciate it, your candor & _ _ _.  RC: Is it possible for the COE to consider doing this again, maybe in 6 months?  Is that, this was extremely helpful to me - if you're still speaking to me. (some laugh) 

JZ: How about the ladies' reaction.  What's your reaction to all this?  I know you said you're gonna help get the levee moving uh during construction.  (Since these ladies were not at the conference table, it was difficult to hear them.)  A Chamber of  Commerce lady: _ _ _ I'd love to have some of these photos for the next few months  _ _ _ _  need to have those up on display.  Chamber members, I don't think uh, even the ones that are approaching me, you know, mostly of course, in the VP area, they might not have a full grasp of all this.  JZ: So you're, you're interested in just getting flood protection for VP _ _ _ _ _ _ ?  (response is inaudible)  RW:  Jim's always available for these sorts of things. (many laugh with him) 

Vivian:  _ _ _ _ _ _  member of West County Chamber & I think it's a very good idea _ _ _ _.   I think more than just VP.  We're all interested in this.  A lady:  We want to see it turn into a Chesterfield Valley, the whole area, & there's no reason why we, you know, we can't be revived.  A lady:  Very interesting to me uh, I _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  & we've been working with the MDNR & to some extent, the COE, on all the env'l _ _ _ _ _ _ _  & I'm putting a lot of it together now.  It really was very, very helpful to me to know what all _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  _ _  _  made some contacts about the funding.  & I did want to say that Senator Bond's office had told me, or maybe Tom Horgan said it, as far as putting in requests for appropriations _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ get involved _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . 

 RC: Mr. Chairman, one, one more question &, & this has been asked of me a number of times.  I think I've got the experts in the room that can help me with this.  Why did Ste. Genevieve get theirs' done & VP didn't?  I mean I don't even know, that's just, that's the question.  I know it's really broadbrushed, but uh what's happenin'? 

JZ: Some of us are involved, I mean I was involved in the Ste. Genevieve project, but uh we had a difficult land acquisition process in Ste. Genevieve.  Uh, we had, the city had to condemn certain properties.  So when we went, it was a struggle for Ste. Genevieve too.  Uh, once we had the land acquired, we, we really were bringing our designs along at the same time.  We were able to award 3 major contracts & have 'em going at the same time.  We built the levee all uh, all within about a yr & a half, a, a big part of it, pump stations & uh the entire length of the levee plus one closure structure all in about a yr & a half.  Um, so I think it was land acquisition & uh the designs coming together at the right time.  We didn't have any env'l mit, real issues.  We had an env'l mit. plan, that we had from the beginning &, & stuck with it.  EM: It, it was a non-urban levee, as, as opposed to an urban levee. 

Greg: You got 2 distinct, different types of communities.  Pat: _ _  % of Ste.Gen. was thru agricultural _ _ _ .  JZ: Basically 100%.  EM: & that's the big answer right there.  JZ: Yeah, even that was difficult. I'll have to say you're right, that was uh - Mike D: mit issue.  RC:  I just needed a names. I, I, -  JZ: I will say that once we were ready, once we got the designs & the uh, the land, we were able to get all the fed $ we needed to build as much as we could build it.  Fed $ was not a problem. That was, that was helpful.  Greg: There was no glass plant down there to deal with either.  (many laugh) 

DC: Just look at the short time it took us to build 3A & 3B, once we had all the land acquisition & everything done.  We moved right along with it from one contract to the other.  The only thing that interfered with us was several uh problems with uh debris that we had to dig up & dispose of & haul off & uh move _ _ uh, uh pool, but after we got too many of these small problems, you see how fast it moves.  JZ: There are, this whole page is problems here, almost all of 'em, we had not experienced these in Ste Genevieve _ _ _ design problems _ _ _  .  Well, let's keep plugging & try to solve each other's problems that we've got listed, quickly as possible. 

RW:  Is any of 'em gettin' close, Jim, to bein' solved?  I mean some of these issues (JZ tries to interrupt, but RW persists) some of the issues here, have been on-going in our levee mtgs for over a yr!  JZ: The design, ok 4A, the design uh, again, I'm not promising it's gonna be done in Oct, but we're certainly working to get that done as close to Oct as we can.  Ok?  Uh, that will include getting the outside approval for this construction for the use of the glass plant material.  Uh, the env'l mit plan, I think we've made great progress there.  We have a plan that, that our own, that our own uh reviewers are satisfied with.  It's just a giant step & we, we've done some, have some plans in 3 different physical areas, plus mit banks.  I think we're, soon as we get some agency review of this, we're gonna be uh in pretty good shape on this env'l mit. plan.  It's gonna cost some money & we need to develop a cost estimate which we haven't done yet 'cause we need the quantities & get a cost estimate.  But I think the solution is uh is close here. 

Mike D: I'm ready to issue the _ _  permit, I just need a written guarantee that this is what we're gonna stand by.  This is our plan. This is where we're gonna go.  I can take it to the agency & sell it to the agency, so as soon as I get the assurance from you, this side & this side, I'm ready.  JZ: Ok. So, so we're in good shape once we get the env'l mit plan & the uh subsequent 404 Permit.  Um, on #4D here, um we thought about doing this env'l mit. work by a separate contract, but we're still, still thinking about that because it may be wise to just put it in (strange noise_ _ _ ) contract because there's certain excavations in this Simpson Lake.  We have a stockpile that has to be removed & we're gonna dig it deeper & it certainly would be more efficient to take that material & put it straight into the levee rather than have a separate step.  So we're considering just combining that in with our, our March Item 4B contract. 

Um, Terry Norris, uh _ _ _  historic preservation requiremt.  It's just a big gamble.  & tree felling contract will be handled as long as we can, we have to get the approval to work at the glass plant before we - RW: take the trees down, right?   JZ: So that's, I think we're making progress on all these other things.  Uh, the sponsor, on the land acquisition, _ _  got a _ _ _ eng'g firm & you got appraiser, they've got uh, I guess survey companies working with the eng'g firm & so they're moving ahead on their parts in this.

Uh, perhaps they, you know, we will get this land acquired, land _ _ _ _  against the  _ _ _ _ .   MM:  Excuse me, I need to point out that uh, in April of 98, I have a hundred thousand dollar contract to buy my property.  It fell thru, but it was a hundred thousand dollar contract.  & in July of 2000, Eric Martin gave me a $30,000 buy-out offer for my property.  & in about Sept of 2000, I got an $83,000 appraisal.  So you might not have so much trouble buying people out, if you would be more reasonable!  That's all I have to say.  JZ: Well, there's a whole real estate process that we go thru.  MM: Well, it's obviously not fair!  

JZ: Uh, the relocations, uh that's something that  we just need to continue working on.  I think we're, we're making progress on that.  Um, you know, we need the um right to get on the, er the city needs the right to get on the uh property in Arnold's Landing, to do their Phase 2 HTRW Study.   Eric's pointed out, that's, given a timetable for that today.  Um, & I think the circle (strange noise _ _ ) the contaminated ground water problem is _ _ _ _ _ _ .  Purdy is working on the remediation plan.  Pat, do you have any, uh  -

Pat: I spoke with Andy McCord early last wk.  He said he was planning to meet with Tom Seigel.  He said shortly.  Do you know if he has yet?  EM:  I donno.  JZ: Anyway, I think that's my main point, uh _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _accomplish these things.   RW: (laughs & says) in due time!  A lady:  Is there anything on either side that we can do?  Chamber of Commerce, we represent 8 cities _ _ _ _ _, so we're pretty large.  JZ: Uh.  EM: Keep your pressure on the congressional delegation, as far as uh, gee, these guys need to be funded, uh, to build the levee.  Lady: That's been an easy part, except for once there.  _ _ _ _ _ _ .  EM: or political.  JZ: _ _ _ budget that  _ _ _ _.  EM: Thank you.  (Several others say thank you & this 6/17/02 mtg @ COE  ends.)