Notes:  Click on Photos, Maps & Such to see a picture taken at this mtg, of JZ's levee drawing. 


Present:  DC, BL, TW, BW,  DS, JH, RH, JW, JZ,  EM, & CLM.  Also RC, DA & Senator Jean Carnahan rep, Carolyn  Pelot. 


Present Tidbits:  BL was absent for about 1/2 of the mtg.  JH left after about 3/4.  RC was up at his desk during most of the mtg except for several mins around 6 pm, when he left with DA;  but returned shortly, alone, carrying a large stack of books & papers to his desk. 



9/16/02 Levee - Section  1 of 24


DC: this mtg to order.  Uh, I'd like to introduce our new levee member, but he is isn't here.  I think that maybe we need to uh, Mr. Gary Adams was supposed to be the floodplain rep & I don't - he hasn't been here.  So I think maybe we need to uh, uh bd of ald, maybe you could come up with uh, someone from the 1st Ward, uh, or in the floodplain.  The floodplain rep to rep the city here. 


Uh, our Mr. Adams couldn't - (JZ & EM in background)  JZ: stick that in the escrow acct?  DC: come to the last - EM:  I will today.  JZ: Great.  EM:  Tomorrow.  DC:  He hasn't come at all - JZ:  Yeah, that's fine, tku.   DC:  So that's not Dan, that's Gary Adams.  So if you could come up with another name, maybe we'll uh, bring it up at the next mtg & uh, appoint him to be a, a floodplain member rep.  Uh, I'll call the roll now.  & uh, we'll have a new member maybe coming next time to the, uh mtg from uh, to rep our senator from our cgsm or rep.  Ok.


CLM:  Here, Carolyn is here from Sen Carnahan's office.  DC:  Carolyn here is from the - CLM:  Sen Carnahan's office.  DC:  Carolyn Pelot, Palot?  (Carolyn & JZ pronounce paylow)  & she's the deputy directories in MO rep'g, Jean Carnahan, our US Senator from MO.  Uh, we gave her uh, a sort of uh, an hour tour of the levee before the mtg & let her get some idea what the levee looks like & where it is, & the area that that's protecting in the City of VP.  Uh, I hope she learned something;  I mean it's kind of quick - Carolyn: _ _ _ _  - DC: quick run thru.  But if you have any questions or anything, you can either get a hold of Jim, JZ, or myself & if you have any questions about anything else, be glad to try to answer 'em or show you what it is. 


CLM:  & Jim Mitas uh, & I talked today;  he asked me to express his regrets;  he has a long-standing doctor's appointmt & hadn't, he hadn't been put on the mailing list yet.  So when I called him last wk & he was out; & I only got to him today to tell him about the mtg.  So he apologized & said he  _ _ _ gonna be here in the future.  DC:  Ok.  JZ:  What, what's his name again?  CLM:  Jim, James D. Mitas (spells Mitas);  he's replaced Tom Horgan on uh, Cgsm Akin's staff here in St. Louis.  He handles science & technology & military programs.   DC:  We'll get him on the mailing list, that's for sure;  he'll be gettin' a packet.  (Pledge Allegiance)  


9/16/02 Levee - Section  2 of 24


DC:  Uh, are there any additions or deletions to the agenda that anyone'd like to make?  I have one;  it'll be Item E, 8E, uh, Maureen Morris, the levee.  Uh, we had uh, a little Progress Report here.  I'll probably get that with the g/p update;  we'll carry it under there.  There's no additions or deletions, I'd like a motion to approve the agenda.  ?: So moved.  ?:  2nd.  DC:  I have a motion & a 2nd to approve the agenda;  uh, all in favor?  (some, possibly all aye)  Ayes have it. 


Uh, like to approve the mins of 7/15 - I, I've never seen - I think maybe we approved the mins of 5/20;  I don't really know.  But uh I didn't, I haven't seen 'em, but 7/15 uh, mins, uh, make a motion to approve 'em?  ?:  Move approval.  DC:  Somebody moved the mins?  ?: _ _ - I hear a 2nd?  ?:  2nd  - DC:  Uh, I have a motion to approve & 2nd the uh, mins of 7/15/2000;  all in favor?  (some, possibly all aye) 


Uh, I don't have any of 'em from the 8/19 mtg, uh - EM:  D-didn't get those;  I'll get the ones from 5/20.  I, I'm sorry I didn't realize that uh - DC:  Ok, we'll just carry 'em over to the next mtg.  We got them for the 15th. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  3  of 24


Ok, discussion items for this mtg;  uh Item 4B update.  Anybody wanna - JZ: I just got a couple of - DC:  Jump right in there. JZ: a couple of things.  I mean you're aware, Dave, that we started our, our borings, uh relief well pilot holes & some soil borings for the relief wells that will go into the um, Item 4B contract.  Uh they have to get those pilot holes drilled before they can do the final design on their actual relief wells.  So they're, they're on their way.


& the city had provided some funds for um, in case of a con, some contamination that came up, uh it has to be disposed of.  That's, that's uh available so far;  I mean it's according to Dave.  I haven't talked to Pat uh Conroy about it, but according to Dave, he thinks that they really haven't found any contamination yet as they, as they pull up these borings. 


DC: Uh, I talked to him last - JZ:  Uno, that'd be good;  uno - DC: like Wed or Th &  - JZ: (chuckling) in the, we're talkin' about in the ground water, uno the ground water contamination.  CLM:  Sure, _ _ - DC:  But I haven't - they were, they were just started last Th;  we got 'em in there.  I, I don't whether the 1st or 2nd hoes - JZ:  Yeah, they're just getting started.  DC:  workin' on.  JZ: So the, so far no, no problem that I know of;  no one's brought it to my attn that it was any problem. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  4 of 24


Um, since the last uh levee cmsn mtg, we had a mtg on 9/5 with uh some env'l agencies to go over a draft, an env'l mit plan & uh that was in the COE office.  & uh, Purdy & Assoc as well as uh Eric & CLM were there, as well as uh, MDNR;  MO Dept of Conservation;  US Fish & Wildlife Svc;  & the COE.  & it was a long & difficult mtg (laughing) I would say.  CLM:  Yeah.  JZ:  Uh, a lot of people spouting a lot of philosophy I guess. & um, they were not really overly pleased with our mit plan, the, the other agencies were not. 


Uh, for stream mit, uh they were saying that they would prefer that we just go to a mit bank because if we only do work on one side of a creek, then they don't think it has a whole lot of value.  Our biologist really disagreed.  Um, we did reach uh, some kind of a compromise on wooded wetlands where in the uh, we plan on planting some trees in the Simpson Lake det area & actually uh, lowering the elevation slightly to, to kind of create an opportunity for a wetland there;  to create a wooded wetland. 


& uh, they started out by saying you can't do any maintenance.  & our, our hydraulics person can't allow all these little trees to grow up because um, he needs the storage for det.  CLM:  Right.  JZ:  So the compromise was that there was gonna be certain bands of land that're, are maintainted;  where the water can get from one end to the other.  Uh, & uh evidently there's a, there's a potential for a, uno a compromise uh, solution that everybody can be satisfied with.  & we can get uh, some 6 acres of wooded wetlands out of that site. So that's still in the plan, uh, I mean it's still a draft plan till we get it all finalized.  But that's the way that's heading.


Now there's another mtg planned next wk between the COE & the city uh, experts re um, this mit plan, trying to come to a final conclusion. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  5 of 24


CLM:  When did you know, Jim? After particularly, DNR guy got off his high horse, uh they did show immense interest in the uh, possiblity of stream bank mit using that uh, upper part of Fill, uh - JZ:  Fish, Fishpot.  CLM:  Fishpot Creek.  Fillpot.  JZ:  Yeah.  CLM:  Fishpot Creek as well as uh possibly something uh, in uh between Simpson Lake & the river;  & even over on the other side of the river.  & along those lines, uno, Andy McCord indicated that he had initially talked with the County Parks people & they'd indicated they were interested in doing something.  & last time he talked with 'em, they said no, they didn't have any interest. 


I talked with the Director of the County Parks Dept & she said that they would be interested under certain quick conditions;   & I asked if we e-mail her some more detail, she was going out of town that day JZ:  Umhuh.  CLM:  or the next day.  & Andy McCord uh, is, either has done or will do that uh this wk.  & so there's a good chance that the County Parks may become a player - JZ:  Yeah.  CLM: in helping us with the stream bank erosion. 


JZ:  Um, uno, my, my feeling is that whatever we come up with we need, we should be coming up with a plan that's acceptable really soon - CLM:  Soon.  JZ: & it should be most cost effective plan.  CLM:  Right.  JZ: Uh, if we uno, compare with, compared with um, stream mit off, in off-site areas, uh, in a mit bank;  compare it with that, we should be doing something that's equal to or less than cost. 


CLM:  Yeah, if I could just address that for a second with the rest of the cmsn.  As Jim knows, we, that's the way we're approaching it.  Uh, DG Purdy & Assoc, they're workin' for the city, & Eric & I, working with Jim & people of the COE;  basically are saying, what can we do first of all that's on site.  Because that's the most desired from the resource people we've been working on, env'l agencies, as well as - if, if we can create something that's aesthetically pleasing & nice to have within VP, on land that VP owns now, that would be a plus, as opposed to just arbitrarily going off-site to somewhere in Jefferson County or Franklin County into a stream bank;   uno, buying acres along the, an existing stream. 


Uh, secondly, that, if we can do that & it's acceptable & the agencies will either buy off on it, or not object so strenuously, if the COE feels like they can still buy-off on it, bearing in mind the COE is the uh controlling agency for this particular permit, the 404 Permit.  The other agencies, state & fed, are coordinating agencies;  they recommend, object;  in the end, the COE makes the decision with one exception;  & that is DNR uh has to issue a, the uh Clean Water Discharge Permit, Section 401, before the COE can issue a 404.  So they do have sort of have a hammer like that.  But our approach basically, is what can we do that's on site, that's acceptable, & if we can, then let's look & see, is that cheaper than doing it off-site, by buying it at a mit bank. 


Jim's point, which is extremely well taken, that we all agree is, well, whatever we do, we wanna do it & settle it & get it to goin' quickly, so that we can get the forforpor Permit & work can proceed.  JZ:  Yeah, that, plus the costs;  uno, I wanna keep the costs down.  CLM:  Absolutely. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  6 of 24


EM:  If, if I may, just, just I, I think Jim really understated the tenor, at least at the beginning tenor of the mtg.  Um, one of the permitting, uh agencies, uh in commenting on the COE's proposed plan, uh - CLM: in writing (chuckling) - EM: & I'm quoting this, uh, stated that a buy-out or moving of the City of VP should be realistically evaluated as more cost effective & realistic, especially when weighed against the add'l damages to the state's resources.  Just because a lot of money has been spent & damages have occurred todate, does not mean it would not be wise to evaluate how much more we can invest to make this project appear worthwhile.


 Um, this guy was advocating moving the city;  & if we don't move the city, that at the very least uh for bottomwood hard, bottomland hardwoods, that we have a 3 to 1 mit;  which means the city would have to go out & acquire 180 acres of land.  Of course that doesn't exist in the city itself for mit &, & on & on & on.   & uh uno, I, I'm just really glad that these guys are, are, are recommending & not the, the actual agencies that issue the permits.  Altho, um, I, I think this gentleman has some input in the 401 Process. 


JZ:  Yes.  CLM:  Oh yeah.  EM:  That's a little scary too, but - CLM:  Most important thing is he's not the guy in charge of that (chuckle).   EM:  Yeah, thank God!  JZ:  Who is that?  EM:  Boos, (spells Boos), Donald Boos.  CLM:  Don, I think it _ _ _Boos.  (spells Boos).  EM:  & he got a little more reasonable as time went on; a little more, not -  CLM:  In fact at the end, he was even suggesting that we, we look at this consultant study for uh Fishpot Creek;  that that was promising.  Perhaps if we had excessive credits on Fishpot Creek, they could even apply 'em to GG Creek. 


TW:  It's not unusual that they have that position.  CLM: Oh, well, he was way further out than they usually are.  TW:  Not lately (from what?) we've encountered.  CLM:  But what, what he put in writing is, is tame, compared to what he said there at the mtg (chuckling). 


TW: Right, yeah;  but I've encountered the same thing on this.  Just a (simple or similar?) creek channelization in Kirkwood  -  CLM:  They want to relocate - TW:  in an urban setting.  CLM: They want to relocate Kirkwood too?  TW:  They want to turn the stream back to naturalized property.  CLM:  Let alone, Faud, he was thruout, something about, I don't know what the problem is;  money's not an object;  the COE doesn't care;  who cares about what the, what things cost.  JZ:  The COE does care.  CLM:  Of course the COE does.


9/16/02 Levee - Section  7 of 24


DA:  Mr. Chair, quick cmt;  you mentioned um, possibly about um placing trees in the Simpson Lake um, det pond;  I don't know that that's such a bad idea.  It's um, uh right now it's just an open pit, so to speak.  Um, occasionally a little bit of water gets into it.  If we did it in a fashion that it's actually something you could walk thru with trees on each side, uno - CLM:  It's an asset.  DA:  you could actually turn it into something.  It's, it's not unattractive now, but it's just pretty blank - CLM:  It's kind of there.  DA:  Um, & uno, the first, when people visit my house, first thing they ask, what is that;  & well, it's a place where water's gonna go if we ever get a (brantch or grant?).  I'm gonna propose a um - it'll be something  -


JZ: That, that plan isn't - that  wasn't really uh rejected.  I think that was one, the one plan that seemed to have some support all around.  DA:  I mean uh, I certainly do not only speak for, uno _ _ - TW: _ runs up towards an existence of their property, figured they had the - JZ:  Well, I think they're looking for a place to - I think all these agencies, & I know the COE people are looking for a place to do some env'l improvemts, uno.  CLM:  Yeah.  DA:  I would think that would be -


EM:  I think conceptually what they're talking about, let's say it's 10 acres in there, & I'm not sure, it's maybe like 8-1/2 - DA:  It's a 17 acre - EM:  or 9.   DA:  It's a 17 acre, or 14 acre clearing.  EM:  Well, it was 12 acres, um was the tract, uh, up there I believe;  um, may, maybe a little bit, maybe 14.  But I think the, the det basin itself is right around, I'd say 10;  & I think uh, the proposal was 6-1/2 acres.


JZ:  The way, uh, I think what is, is uh, they're gonna excavate - first of all, there's a pile of dirt in there now that's just temp, & that would be taken away &, & used directly in the levee.  &, & then they're talking about excavating uno, just a little bit lower - CLM:  Yeah, maybe 12 or 18 acres - JZ:  It's 6 ac, let's just say 6 acres of the 10, in an area that's kind of L shaped where the water comes in from the, from the west, & then over, works it's way over toward where the water drains out thru the gravity drain. 


An area that's 6 acres & that would be planted with trees in a certain uh, distance between the trees.  & that would become a wooded wetland;  & that would be a mit for wooded wetlands, ok.  & we need 6.6 acres & I think that we're gonna get this .6 acres somewhere else, the way I remember it.

DA:  There is an adjoining piece of property.  JZ:  & then next to that, besides that, they would plant other trees, & (then?) we'll sell you higher ground, which, which would be what they call bottomland hardwoods, ok, it's not wooded wetland.  & that's still a ni, it's a good thing that they need to have they say.  & they have to stay a certain distance away from, from the levee;  so it's not right up to the levee or the berm.  But anyway, I think uh, uno, a nice looking area, & when things mature. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section   8 of 24


TW:  You said before tho, Jim, about storage loss;  & that's certainly quite a concern for hydrologists, as it would us.  & uh, obviously, you'd have to acct for that.  JZ:  Yeah, that's part of that excavation actually.  TW:  Yeah, actually.  CLM:  Yeah. 


TW:  &, & uh, the other thing that may concern me, when you go down a little bit deeper, will there be any problems with the ground water type problems?  JZ:  No, that's another factor is that, uh, no, we, our, we have to stay away from the levee, especially the, the part along the Meramec River, ok, a certain distance - CLM:  Pat Conroy (COE Geotechnical eng) & uh, Dennis (Dennis Stephens, COE hydraulics eng) - JZ:  for underseepage concerns.  CLM:  are both interested in mtg.  TW:  Because you're, because if you have the ground water table exposed, or close enough to where you invite a pituitary effect, - JZ:  Yeah.  TW:  uno, you could uh, possibly, uno, see the time where if the ground water table was up & it rains, you, you won't have your storage that you might think you have.  JZ:  Well, yeah, he's taking  - TW:  'cause we've encountered that before. 


JZ:  He's taking into acct the borings, uno that show how thick the clay is there & a certain distance back - CLM:  At the time we entered this discussion, Pat Conroy had signed off on the solution as with the levee, & Dennis had signed off on it as far as the storage.   JZ:  Storage, that's right. 


DA:  There is a small tract, probably between an acre to an acre & a half, directly to the north, connected to the ten, retention pond now.  It's vacant, been vacant for, for yrs;  um it's just a, a vacant lot right now.  It can go - TW:  If they, if they would need add'l storage space.  DA:  If they would need add'l storage, it's something to consider. 


It's uno um, it's been up for sale 2 or 3 times in the last 2 yrs, but it's a absolute, uh actually there's several large pieces & that, connected to the north, strictly um, to the south, I'm sorry, to the south - BW:  Nothin' to the north.  TW:  Between there & the manufacturing area or the business area there?  DA:  Um, actually no, um, directly to the east of uh - BW: 10th St.   DA: 9th St. That's 9th - BW:  9th, yeah.  DA: Yeah, right, but uh, straight south of that.  TW:  Right, but I mean all the way to 10th.  DA: It would go all the way to, uno that, that one house burnt down last yr, it'd go all the way to uh, uh, all the way to Benton St.  TW:  Yeah.  DA:  That's, that's uh, an option.  Uh, the, the idea of plantin' the trees & that, certainly is a - CLM:  I think that's a win, win deal.  DA:  Think that's all, all we (need?).   


9/16/02 Levee - Section  9 of 24


DC:  I have a ques on that;  we have a borrow area that we're going to either have or have not - JZ: Right.  - DC: on the outside of the levee, on, on, between Pharoah, River Dr & Pyramid - JZ: Umhuh - DC:  that's quite a  - JZ:  drawing right behind you there.  DC:  quite a large area - JZ:  to the right of the, of the yellow uh, levee area. 


DC:  & also the area on the det pond at uh, the GG is filled with dirt now & it'll be, that dirt'll be moved outta there.  & that det pond will be enlarged considerably after, once that, all that dirt is gone outta there;  there's 2 huge mounds of dirt in there.  There's probably as much dirt in that area, in that det pond as there is in uh the Simpson Lake det area, maybe more.  & I think that possibly, that, some of that area could be used as uh, a mit, if we can use the Simpson Lake uh miti, uh det pond -


JZ:  The, the latest thinking on those 2 places:  uh, GG det area where the 2 piles of dirt are, uh, Ken Dalrymple would like to put some trees around;  well, he would like to put trees all thru it, but basically for the storage reasons, uh, uh, Dennis Stephens didn't really agree with that, but he did agree with, from what I understand, uno, it was putting some around the outside edge, the slope going down & so forth.  DC:  Right.  JZ:  & so there's, there's an idea of putting some more trees in that area. 


& then the one out, thru, between the, the levee & the river, out by uh Pharoah St, at this point, they haven't determined, uno whether that's, gonna use that borrow area or not.  DC:  Right. - JZ:  Still haven't determined.  DC:  But I -


JZ:  Now there is the 2 options:  if you don't use it, we would probably be doing some kind of a se, selective clearing, leaving some large trees, like 8 to 10" in diameter, all the way, all the way from the levee, all the way to River Rd, ok.  DC: Right.  JZ:  But not taking everything down, like the one point was discussed.  So that would be something that's pretty nice & then the other, the other option is that we do that kind of clearing between the borrow area & River Dr, but in the b, but we actually do take borrow material, ok.  In that case, we would go back in & plant that with, again, uh, some trees that would grow up, but would have to be maintained so that there's not a bunch of brush in between it in the future, so.   DC:  Yeah, I know I talked to - JZ:  So, I think from the city's standpoint, it's gonna be kind of a park-like area & -


DC:  Right, they don't - JZ:  all the way thru there - DC: know if they're gonna - JZ: one way or the other.  DC: use that borrow or not;  whether they'll need it or not.  JZ:  Ok.  BW:  When will it be determined if they're gonna need it or not? 


JZ:  Uh, this has to be done fairly soon.  Uh, that's a good ques.  DC:  Right, uno.  JZ:  It's a matter of looking at the quantities of clay needed & sources of clay & so forth.  TW:  That'll be done before your bid pkg goes out.  JZ:  Yeah, it'll be, it has to be done because it has to be part of the design.  So I, but I can't tell you exactly when because I just don't have the schedule.  Uh, we're, we're gonna be mtg, discussing the design this, this wk again;  to go over the schedule that needs to, jobs that has to be done, so. 


BW:  Well, & if you're - DC:  I think there's some areas that we need to look at within the City of VP that we can develop for mit.  BW:  It's a matter of whether you're gonna need that material or not?  JZ:   Whether, yeah, or whether it's the most cost effective to use that borrow area, right.  I, I personally have a feeling that if there's enough clay there, it's probably cost effective to borrow it, uno.  CLM:  That's really the bottom line.  JZ:  Uno, 'cause it's right next to the levee, obviously.


9/16/02 Levee - Section  10 of 24


BW:  It solves this problem with, basically what, the DNR?  CLM:  Well, our big problem with DNR is really stream bank mit.  JZ:  There's, there's a bunch of - CLM: Most of 'em.  JZ:  There's several problems with 'em.  BW:  But what they want to replace wetlands &, & uh hardwood - JZ:  Well, I think we've got the wetland - there's, there's wooded wetlands, ok, & I think we've got that pretty much - CLM:  Under control.  JZ:  under control because we're gonna put the 6 acres -


see there's 2.2 acres of wooded wetlands that are destroyed by the project;  ok, only 2.2 acres.  & that is uh, gonna be handled with this Simpson Lake creation of 6 acres of wooded wetlands.  See, there's a 3 to 1 ratio of mit.  BW: Simpson Lake?  JZ:  Simpson Lake det area.  BW:  Oh, the det area, ok, yeah.  JZ:  So 6 acres there, plus another point 6 acres I think over in GG - BW: Should cover it all.  JZ:  covers that. 


So then there's the issue of, we haven't really talked about it, but of bottomland hardwoods & the more, well, we talked a little bit about;  you said they wanted a 3 to 1 ratio.  EM: 180 acres. JZ:  I don't think the COE uno, really agrees with that & so um, we're, we're just kind of in a flux on the 60 acre, er on the bottomland hardwoods.  If, if we damage less hard, bottomland hardwoods, by not taking that borrow area, then that's less to deal with, ok;  or mit again.  (JZ chuckles & BW laughs) So we're kind of balancing - BW: That which we're losing.  (laughing) - JZ: Yeah, 60 acre mitiga, er wooded, uh bottomland hardwood mit & costs & all that stuff, & we just don't have all the pieces of the, of the equation yet, so. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  11 of 24


CLM: Then there's stream bank mit.  JZ:  & then the stream bank is really uh, more dif, the most difficult of all to deal with, stream bank 'cause there's not much opportunity to do anything on, in the project area;  & now you're looking at other locations.  & you want to look at other locations & uh - CLM:  The other thing that - JZ: VP.  CLM:  that I mentioned at that mtg that we didn't really discuss, the resource agents are saying, you have to mit for all the damage;  for example on Fishpot Creek, that's occurred over the last 50 yrs.  Well, the project -  JZ: Mmmm, I don't think so. 


CLM:  That, that was the impression I got as far as the, the, the length of the stream & - JZ:  I think they're talkin' about what was caused by the project.  'cause there was, there was an oxbow in Fishpot Creek.  Are you saying, just that section, physical section that was _, but, but you - CLM: Yeah.  JZ:  You have to take that whole area & put it back?  CLM:  Yeah.  JZ:  Ok. 


CLM:  I think they're, I think they're tryin' to require us to compensate or mit for damages that were done outside of the project.  JZ: Like it maybe wasn't that pris, pristine when the COE started their const anyway.  CLM:  Exactly.  You've seen that there was nothing there wrong with the stream when we started work there.  JZ:  Yeah.  CLM:  & that just, as everybody knows, including them, this was not the case.  It was from upstream dev that you had all kinds of erosion & crap going down thru there.


BW: & now the DR, DNR is going to have to issue a permit for the quote levee, before the contract can be let for the levee?  JZ: Um - CLM:  The COE - BW:  happy before then? - CLM:  The COE has to issue - JZ:  Basically - CLM:  Section 404 Wetlands Permit as part of that Clean Waters Act law.  Someone, in this case the state, thruout the country, it's the state, has to issue a Clean Water Discharge Permit which is called a Section 401 of the Clean Water Act.  BW:  To the COE so the  COE can issue the -


CLM:  Yeah, the COE cannot issue the 404, unless the state issues the 401.  BW:  So you gotta make the state happy with their wetland mit.  CLM:  Well, the COE has to make them happy up to a point of reasonableness.  I mean they've, they've got a level, as the state does;  they can ask you to do things that are implying if you don't, we won't issue the 401, but if they get unreasonable, then other factors can be brought to bear like who they work for & that sort of thing uno.


EM:  & we've applied for a 401 that has other issues, besides these that - CLM:  Oh yeah.  EM:  that are going on.  Un, it's, it's contaminants & discharge of contaminants is really the primary thust, thrust of, of that from that.  & I, I'm not, I, I don't think we've had cmts back yet from DNR on that.  CLM:  Uno, if that, Ken Dalrymple told Andy that the agencies came loaded for bear because they were ticked off at the COE for things that went on in VP, & they were just getting up out of the corner


BW:  You mean when the western part of the levee was done & Fishpot Creek, were they involved in all this at that time?  Did they - JZ: They have been, yeah, but they - BW:  Not to the - JZ: They think that the - CLM:  The COE issued a 404 Permit & state issued a 401 Permit - JZ: That was 1992.  CLM:  as planned in 1992.  There've been changes since then, so the COE's going back & telling the agencies, fed & state, we've made changes to the project, so we want to modify the 404 Permit.  That's what's created all this new review.   BW:  Unhuh!  Stirred 'em all up. 


CLM:  Well, &, & they were very unreasonable;  they were accusing the COE of doing all this work in an unauthorized manner as if the COE had not issued a 404 Permit & coordinated WITH them back in '92 & gotten the 401 Permit, which is not true.  Changes have occurred which nobody could've fore, foretold.  Now, they (go or grow?) up, which they should do;  go back, everything changes;  & we want to tell you, these guys, about the changes & what these add'l impacts are;  & we want to modify the permit & we want your cmts on our proposed modification.  That's what this mtg was about.  & they all came in & said we don't like any of it, at first.


JZ:  Well, I was just gonna go on to another topic if that's ok.  CLM:  Good idea.  (JZ & CLM laugh)


9/16/02 Levee - Section  12 of 24


JZ:  Uh,just we also had a mtg, uh really between Eric & uh, Kirk uh Carson & the COE to talk about ROW.  & one, one thing that we, we, one of the things you brought up at the last mtg was it'd be good to have some access into the const area around the g/p from Marshall Rd.  & I don't know, we, we found that there's a paper street that comes from - EM:  Well, we found out after our mtg - JZ:  Oh, ok. 


EM:  We, we uh ran title on it & it appears that the paper street was abandoned in favor of uh, or vacated in favor of the g/f.  So that was an error, a glitch that showed up - JZ:  Ok.  EM: on the uh county base map.   EM:  But we're, we're gonna have to acquire that.  &, & I'mss, I'm thinking we can probably acquire that together with our temp const esmt with a - JZ:  This will be a temp.  DC?:  What street was that?  


EM:  What was, I, I mean sorry -  with a temp const esmt that we're getting anyway for the uh, filling, of that area.  DC:  Oh, that's at 5th St?  EM:  Yeah.  DC: over at 5th?  EM:  Yeah. 

DA:  What about 3rd, 3rd St?  Isn't there an access to that there, a city street?  EM:  He wants a 5th St access.  DA:  Ok;  'cause I think there is one at 3rd St.  JZ:  Well, I think, I think um, almost any access would be ok to be honest with you.  It was -  EM:  Oh really?!  JZ:  Uno, any access from Marshall Rd down into the - we're just looking for an access. 


EM:  Yeah, well, sure!  There's a, th, that is still a paper street.  DC:  That's a ac, 3rd St is ac, yeah, that's, that's still a paper street.  JZ:  Well, lemme, lemme check into that, ok.  TW:  Doesn't that go right by, there's a couple business - DA:  Batting cages - TW:  Yeah.  DA:  goes right thru there, but not, I mean it's, would make that nicer.  TW:  I  just was thinkin'!  If they vacated that lot - DC:  See, we found out that that's still our street because we, we were storing stuff on there that went thru the g/p one time.  & they brought stuff up in uh, some drums & things that were brought up out of that hole they went over & looked at.  EM:  Yeah.  DC:  & we stored 'em up there. 


EM:  The 5th St one would, would go right down by the det basin that we're gonna fill right there at the uh, cotton - DC:  You've gotta get a temp - EM:  that's gone.  DC: You're gonna get a temp const esmt down there I think.  EM:  That's right, that's right.  DC: There is a street up there. 


JZ: So there's a potential access to the area along this line at 3rd St that would allow you to get in & get out.  DC:  It's, uno, you'd have to look at.  It's pretty - JZ:  Uh, I wanna just, I wanna bring this up with our, our group to see if uh  - DC:  It's pretty negative. (Dave has a great laugh) It's, they filled back there & done all kinds of uno, dumpin' & stuff back in there, but I don't know.  But there is access;  you could go up 3rd St.


(CLM & EM in the background) CLM: Do you know if Dave Cusack knows anything  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _?  -  EM:  Sure.  CLM:  Does he know that maintenance person?  EM: Talkin' to him about that.  CLM: _ _ _ _.  JZ: Ok.   BW:  Well, there's, somewhere along here - CLM: _ _ it's bound to _ _ _ _  - 


BW:  there's a road that y'all been used to 'em, back to the glass - not a road, but  - DC:  What, to the g/p?  BW: Yeah.  DC:3rd St?  ?: No, no.  DC: There was always a street that went back to the g/p.  BW:  No, it's just been recently;  I guess since the g/p det.  DA: I don't think that was ours.  JZ:  It's not really a - BW:  I just noticed that the other day, that there's - JH?: _ those (fillings?), put all those news crews & everything back there.  TW:  I think it's down - DC:  They went down 5th St.  ?: I met up with Walter & I  - DC: 5th St, they went down at 5th St.  TW:  I thought it was down closer to where that treatmt  - DA:  It's 5th St.  JZ:  Yeah.  TW:  5th St, it's right here.  JZ:  Yeah, that's _ -  DC:  Yeah, 5th St is right there where that treatmt - DA?: That's not ours.  DC: facility is up on there.  TW?: That's where that is.   ?: _ _ -


DS: _ utility esmt thru there because there's a sewer thru there.  DC: Right, there is a sewer thru there.  DS:  a sewer.  BW:  Storm sewer?  DC:  Right down thru there.  DS: Sanitary.  TW:  There's a sanitary sewer that runs right along, along the base toe to that slope;  'cause I put a manhole cover back on a manhole & about killed myself.  


EM:  Well, I'm just reporting what Kirk told me;  &, & Kirk indicated he, he'd found where it was vacated & history is they'd talk to their super about it.  TW:  It comes right thru here, _ _ _ & you see it's that ridge line right there where there's a little ridge, but if you waver one side or the other on that ridge, you're gonna go over.  I'd be really careful on that ridge, unless you're in a little ATV or something,  but if you're - JZ:  I didn't know about the 5th St - TW:  in a lot of truck, you'd best be careful.   


JZ:  We just need to - DS: road Camero - JZ: make sure we have a good access plan one way or the other.


9/16/02 Levee - Section  13 of 24


 Um, we talked about this other mtg, we talked about the uh emergency road for the fire trucks needing some add'l, needing to show some add'l area for, for that, um, basically a relocation of an emergency road.  So we, we've been discussing which other - EM:  the, the new properties impacted for outfalls it looked like.  Uh, for uh - JZ:  Yeah, we're still looking at those outfalls. 


Um, we talked about that drop box business.  Um, they're, they're considering the, maybe there's a way to brich this, bring this, the actual storm sewer down all the way to the river;  just uno, on the slope, so it's basically coming in at, at the bottom of the river bank.   EM:  Ok.  JZ:  There's a, there's an option;  so they're still considering that, that idea in addition to it;  altho it'd be kind of in place of the drop box.  So that's at 5th & 3rd Streets. 


EM:  But we'd still need add'l properties from private property owners.  JZ:  May, may not, over & above what's in the draw, ROW drawings.  EM:  Ok.  JZ:  I, I just don't have the answer to that.  EM:  Ok, good.  JZ:  They may be able to put that deeper sewer in with the trench box, & still stay within the const uh, temp const esmts that was, that we show.  EM:  Ok.  JZ:  Ok? 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  14 of 24


Uumm, there are some, uh, there has some been some discussion lately about, uh the need for a Section 10, I think it is, Permit because of work that's in the vicinity of these discharge points in the Meramec River.  CLM:  You wonder how that, if it's 10, to award - JW:  & um - CLM:  the 404. 


JZ:  & also, there's been a little discussion about the fact that there's mussels in the Meramec River.  CLM:  Yeah, endangered, they're on the state list I believe.  JZ:  Yeah, some endangered species list.  So the less we do the better as far as uh, changes to the - CLM:  DNR, DNR bullsh_t.  JZ:  existing situation.  


BW:  How far of the river bank is, technically I guess, DNR's - the definition of the river bank?  CLM:  It's really the COE's.  JZ:  It's ours, by law, I think I believe it's ordinary high water.  CLM:  Ordinary high water in most (counts or counties?). JZ:  Which would be (BW laughs) kind of like the top of the bank I guess.  CLM:  Well, generally, if you were to go down & look at a river bank almost anywhere, you see how far, how far down the vegetation grows;  when it stops growin', that's just about ordinary high water mark. 


EM:  Now for mit purposes, tho, they were espousing 150' from both sides.  CLM:  That's, no that's, we, we're talkin' about Section 10 authority.  JZ: (laughing) Ok, yeah, like for 401 - CLM:  Yeah, for creeks, uh stream, stream bank is uh, that's a fairly new regulatory area.  The COE -  TW:  'cause it used to be that the COE was only concerned with navigable waters.  CLM: Yeah, now it's expanded.  TW:  & in the last 2, 3 yrs, & DNR & their expansion of that, now the COE would use any creek  - CLM:  Even unnamed tributaries - TW: any, I mean CREEKS.  BW:  Fishpot?  TW: Oh, no, I'm talkin' about a creek!  CLM: Talkin' about intermittent, intermittent streams.  TW:  I'm talkin' about a small channel in your back yard!  BW:  Oh, my God (He laughs.)!  TW:  & you're gonna have to submit to the COE for the Section 404 & to DNR. 


CLM:  See, in '92, impacting Fishpot creek & everybody's creek was not regulated.  TW:  'cause it was not navigable.  BW:  Oh, that's where you slipped past that _ _ _.  CLM:  & now they're accusin' the COE of goin' on & doin' things that they're, were against the law;  it's just not true;  it wasn't regulated back then.  TW:  That was not under navigable waters & never an issue.  DC:  Now they are.  CLM:  We are, even an, even an intermittent,  TW:  Now every - CLM: what they called intermittent stream, which is something that sometimes fills water  - TW:  Every depression _ - CLM:  sometimes it doesn't. TW:  that carries ANY water at ANY point, whether it be a - CLM: Any swale, any swale can be regulated. TW: Any swale that you can see. 


DC:  Any, any storm water drainage.  ?:  Right.  CLM:  Oh, it, it highly de -  ?:  make it stop?  TW:  They have;  I can attest.  ?: & it stopped -  DC: A broad spectrum of what you're talkin' about, storm water drainage.  CLM:  Oh yeah.


9/16/02 Levee - Section  15 of 24


JZ:  We also at this mtg on ROW, we talked about that, Dave & I & um, Carolyn looked at it today, as we went by uh the area where the pipe's gonna go from Hiway 141 over to Fishpot Creek.  & there was an addition that was made to that, I guess a restaurant there. 


So we, we talked that we need, need to, or we can actually, squeeze our requiremt down to take the pipe in between the tracks & the, & the bldg, but that's another issue;  a change that's planned for the ROW drawings.  So that's, that was, I guess, that's about all I had.  Let me see if there's anything else.


9/16/02 Levee - Section  16 of 24


DC:  Ok, Tom, your turn.  TW:  Ok, we talked last time about a spreadsheet;  about where we're at on property acquisition & - DC: Give one to each.  TW:  Yeah, we can pass 'em down.  DC:  If some of you need copies, I can get 'em for 'em or something like that.  TW:  & what we did is we took a stab at that.  This was as of today, uh, the off, the office _ _ _ _ _ _ with the status.  Uh, Kirk is uh, working with uh, 2 other gentlemen from our office to get these things kicked in the rear.  Um, & you can look at the list. 


Some of the things have been turned over to Eric;  however, not very many, uh, but we're very close.  If you look down there at the bottom of the list, very close on the bottom half of the list;  really, I actually do have the real descriptons, Eric - EM:  Oquay.  TW:  already completed for all those;  however, uh, Kirk, uh was not comfortable delivering the drawings with me because he had some clean up to work to do.  EM:  That's fine.  TW:  But you can see which ones are completed100%;  you can see which ones er been described by property only;  & then we feel, & of course Eric needs to make that final determination, uh whether or not we need to describe those properties any further.  But um -


9/16/02 Levee - Section  17 of 24


EM:  & there is one deletion;  &, & that's the bottom one.  9 Arnold Dr was, was acquired, um - TW:  Yeah, but we did not do any survey, physical survey on that one.  EM:  Ok.  TW:  So there was really no additional work hardly on our office.  EM: Sure;  the, the city does have that in, in its _- TW:  Uhuh, so some of them - & then there's this little block here in the middle.  & I'm sorry I failed to # these;  there are 16 different properties & uh, (chuckle) I ran out without asking those to be #'d;  but you may want to # 'em. 


But I think it's #8, 18 Arnold, uh #1 Arnold, #4 Arnold, #18 Arnold & #8 Meramec Sta Rd;  I, I think Kirk felt he needed some direction on those.  EM:  Yeah, the, for anything with uh, Brown, uh, the, the Brown's are mainta, so there's more properties than 18;  there's 18R, 19, 20, ummm, I think maybe 17.  Their atty is uh, contending that they're contiguous tracts;  that any taking would thus render them uneconomic.  So, but that, but they're all, they're all legal polp-takings, so it's no big, no big deal for the legals on those.  


TW:  Well, if anybody's, uno & again, I promised you a spreadsheet & I wanted to make sure you had it.  CLM:  This is good.  BW:  Yeah, very nice.  TW:  So this'll give us all a basis uno to be, uno to start pecking away at these properties.  CLM: _ _ _ _ _ - EM:  The only ones that I don't see on here are the ones that, that uh, uh Jim & Pat pointed out that we may or may not need;  & those are the ones on River Dr.  


TW:  Right.  EM:  So we're just - TW:  & again, when they become determined to be needed, then they would be added to the list.  As you can see, this is gonna probably be an evolution here over the next yr.  EM:  & there's one more on Pyramid that's not on here that should be.  TW:  Ok, ok, well, if you would get with Kirk -  EM: I, I will. TW:  tomorrow morning & then maybe even fax over to him - EM:  I, I'll, I'll do it.  TW: an edited version of this - EM:  I'll do it.  TW:  for him.  & then I would say Kirk has promised to me that I um, #10 thru 15 to be at your office by Thurs morning, correct?   EM:  That's correct! 


JZ:  Another, I mean another thing to think about here is that uh, UP RR, there's a ROW needed from them - EM:  Sure.  JZ:  as well as uh - JZ&?:  BN.  TW:  Again, this was our start & we really need to probably take & add to this list I'm sure.  EM: Right.  TW:  Uh, if we get all the properties on the list, & then we can start peckin' away at 'em.  EM:  Right.  TW:  & then as we get things to change, then we probably need to make sure that that gets changed with us as the meet, every mtg, I'll bring an updated list.  


EM:  &, & you may want to note on, on what you do have, the 2nd property, 101 Marshall is under contract.  Uh - TW:  Ok, so good;  so that can be another category that we can put out on the spreadsheet that says, uno, purchase status or something like that.  EM:  Right, uh, &, & mark on all, everything in Arnold's Drive, um is uh, in suit;  umm, & uh, #8 Meramec Sta Rd, um that purchase occurred about 6 mos ago, so you can cross that one out too.  TW:  #8 Meramec Sta?  EM:  Yeah.  TW: Ok, so that's been purchased?  EM:  Yeah.  So 8 Meramec Sta & 9 Arnold Dr have both been purchased;  101 Marshall is - BW:  You said 9 Arnold Dr? 


TW:  _ _ purchased that - EM:  No, 9 Arnold Dr - JZ:  Down at the bottom.  EM: The one at the bottom.  BW: Oh, ok, yeah, the one at the bottom.  TW:  Ok, so that's been purchased.    EM:  Ok, & then 101 Marshall, under contract;  uh, all of Arnold & the levee guage.  TW:  Right, ok.  BW:  #18 Arnold, that's mit?  EM:  Uh, litigation.  BW:  Litigation, yeah.  CLM:  So 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 on your list are in litigation. 


BW:  What's uh the # of the first one, Meramec uh Valley PlazaEM: Uh, we're waiting a legal on that.  TW: Ok, I do have that, with the drawing!  EM:  Oh, great (he laughs), ok.   CLM:  _ _ _ _  - ?: (uplifting?)  EM:  This, this has to go into prancert now.  TW:  Do you want these legals - if you want us to word anything?  EM:  Yeah, yeah.  TW:  _  the drawings;  probably gonna be Thurs.  EM:  That's great.  Fabulous.   CLM:  Good job, Tom.  JZ:  Yeah. 


EM:  All these, from here, these all go to the appraiser.  Um, the appraiser for instance, has already appraised Mer Valley Plaza, but we were unsure what the exact layout was going to be.  & so until final design was done, with, within the last 3 wks really, we're not sure, we know what the before is.  But when you appraise property, you have to look at the total value before the take;  then less the value after the take, so you compare the whole from the part.  BW: _ _ _  - EM:  Yeah.  So we didn't have the part, we had the whole.  So, so now this gives us the opportunity to do that;  & we've already approached Meramec uh, Plaza & they've been waiting on this, so


TW:  Right.  Ok, just real quick, just 'cause this is all um pretty important stuff here;  uh, we're waiting on Mer Valley, being #2, Mar, 101 Marshall's been purchased.  The next uh group of Arnold is under the uh #8 Mer Sta Rd, has been purchased;  the other group in there, of course you probably haven't been able to pursue without the - EM:  Needed a legal, yeah. TW:  Right, but now you're gonna have that.  & then the last property, #9's been purchased.  BW: 9 Arnold Dr.  EM:  Yeah, 9 Arnold Dr's been purchased.  TW:  Right, & then there's going to be some  additions to this by the RR properties? 


EM:  2 RR's & then some uh property on River Dr, right up here.  JZ: _ _ _ _ said Pyramid _ _ _ - TW:  But we don't know that yet.  EM:  Yeah, &, & then on Pyramid, uh, it's uh (pause) -TW:  Is that one factual, actual?  'cause the other one on River Rd, we don't know yet, right?  EM:  Yeah;  oh, the one on Pyramid's definite.  TW:  Ok, so there is one on Pyramid?  EM:  Yeah.  TW:  & that's fine, just give Kirk the address.  EM:  I will.  TW:  So # blank Pyramid is an addition.  So we're somewhere around 19 -


JZ:  Plus, MO Hiway Dept for the 141, where it ties into 141.  EM:  & I'm thinkin' we may have one other;  um - TW:  So we're up to maybe 20?  EM:  I'm, I'm thinkin' there maybe - TW:  Minus - EM:  I'm thinkin' there may be one under there & that is um, Kirchner;  I believe also abutts Wallace.  It goes Wallace, Kirchner, & then Simpson;  there's all 3 tracts in there I think that we have to acquire yet. 


TW:  If you could just fax a list to Kirk - EM: Yeah.  TW:  tomorrow some time maybe we can add this too.  & he'll be complete with a majority of this & then maybe he can move on to these others.  EM:  That's great.  That's great!  TW:  Ok, good.  JH: Excuse me, guys, I have to...  (JH leaves.)  (exchange tapes) ...TW: ...I'll have this as up-to-date as we can for every mtg.  ?:  Ok.   BW:  That's great, really fantastic. 


EM:  Uh, j, j, just one more about 101 Marshall;  I just want to make myself clear.  The, the city made an offer;  uh, they came back with a counter-offer that was $2300 higher I think.  The COE has approved that, our appraiser has approved that;  so uh, I, I mean the final authority on that's - TW: It's just a formality at this point.  EM:  On, on 101 Marshall - TW: Yeah.  EM:  & the final, it's, it's before the bd tonight in a form of a disbursemt request, so I  (pause) - TW:  Ok, well, that's all I have for now.


9/16/02 Levee - Section  18 of 24


DC:  Ok, I have one thing on Item 4B.  I did a, we did a little tour today & I noticed behind uh Mer Valley Plaza, they proceeded to tear up their pkg lot & dumped all the blacktop over the hill in back on there.  EM:  Wow!  DC:  Uh, I think it should be brought up to bd of ald today.  Do they have a permit to dump that blacktop on that?  I didn't think you could dump blacktop just anywhere;  I thought that was special waste.  EM:  Well, actually that's city property anyway.  DC:  & so - BW:  Well, didn't they have to get a permit to, to change the pkg lot?   DC:  Well, I don't know;  that's a ques I, I wanted to bring up.  Members of the bd of ald tonight, would you -


RH:  I saw, Dave, when I went across the bridge this morning when I was inspectin' track, yeah, they, whatever they did up front, they tore all that out & uno, put new asphalt in the pkg lots;  & the wastes dumped over the back of the bldg _ _.  DC: & again, it's another one - BW: Do they have to get a permit to do a change of pkg lot?  DC:  Another one of these deals, uno, just take it from the front, dump it in the back & let - RH: You have to have a permit to dump _ _ - DC:  let us take care of it eventually if we - but I think -  EM:  Yeah, the, the city's ROW actually goes right up against their pkg lot, almost. 


DC:  Well, they got it all dumped right on the bank.  RH:  Yeah.  CLM:  Any down the bank?  DC:  DOWN THE BANK!  CLM:  Could be a Section 10 Violation.  JZ:  It's not the bank of the river;  it's down, it's between River Rd & the pkg lot.  CLM:  Oh - DC:  It's between River Rd & the bank;  it's not on, in the river;  it's not on the - CLM:  not on the river bank?  ?: But you can see 'em backin' up to - CLM:  Oh, ok. 


JZ: Well, you might just find out what, what the signs _ _ remove - DS:  Oh, they started dumpin' at the bottom - JZ:  because the city wrote, had to  write 'em a check on their property (chuckle).  CLM:  Yeah (chuckle).  JZ:  They haven't written the check yet (chuckle). CLM: (chuckle) That's right;  deduct it.  DS:  _ stopped 'em.  They started dumpin' at the bottom;  _ stopped 'em;  so they don't have a permit.  DS:  They didn't have a permit & he stopped 'em.  DC:  Well - DS:  Caught 'em.  DC:  Well, they need to get it cleaned up, if nothin' else.  So, guys, bring it, one of you fellas, bring it up on, put it on the agenda tonight somewhere.  Ok.  CLM:  Sounds like a winner!


9/16/02 Levee - Section  19 of 24


DC:  Uh, (B or D?) city cost share for the project & TPC;  any update on that.  Are we - EM: Yeah, I, I can give you an update.  The uh, COE accepted our costs up thru ninety-sssseven, up thru '98, with some modifications.  We, we've completed those modifications. 


We've got a um, appraisals pending on all the county buy-out properties.  & um, they're going to be what, they're, they're called Short Form Appraisals that the COE's indicated that we can do.  & um, uh, I'm working with Diane over at uh, Demba uh Valuations on those.  Uh, she, she's awaiting legals on those & I'm, I'm simply pulling the deed together for that.  & uh, I think really that was the only outstanding issue that the COE has approved all our appraisals, uh other than the, the acutal paymts made.  CLM:  We're definitely gonna come out owing less money than - EM:  Oh, I mean there's just, yeah, there's no ques about that.  Uhm - JZ:  Well, there'll be an increase in the project costs because the land cost goes up.  EM:  Right.  JZ:  & so the levee. 


CLM:  As far as the rest of that item, uh, well, it's the next item, fed & sponsor funding.  Excuse me.  DC:  Jump right in there.  CLM:  Carol, did you have anything to add as far as the status of the Senate.  Carol:  No, _  - CLM:  Last I heard was last wk & I did hear that the Senate Aprops for Energy & Water Subcmte had reported that their bill to the full Senate Cmte & - Carol:  Right.  CLM:  & is pending action on the floor of the Senate which is not scheduled.  & the same is true on the House.  The House Aprops Cmte has report about their bill & it's awaiting scheduling for action before the House.  Plus, once they both pass the bill, then it goes into joint conference & obviously, that hasn't been scheduled yet & the joint conferees have not been appointed. 


Uh, the Senate, as we discussed earlier, the COE capability if 4.2 Million;  the budget request for 600,000;  the Senate uh # coming out of subcmte, not seeing the same thing out of cmte, was 4 Million total.  So they got everything the COE said they could use from 200,000 which I think is going to be very, very good as far as the COE's capability's concerned as it turns out.  & on the House, I don't have a # yet;  uh, I've got a request in & that's gonna have to be checked out. 


What happens next is, the House & the Senate both have to act & then they go to joint conference to resolve their differences.  & then they send a, a Joint Conference Report to the Pres for signature.  None of the 13 aprops bills have passed either the House or the Senate;  they all have to be acted upon.  Time is growing short.  It's almost certain that uh most of the aprops bills, if not all of 'em, will not pass by 10/1, beginning the new FY.  Which means that uh, the House & the Senate will have to pass Continuing Resolutions for each of these 13 aprops bills, which basically says that each fed agency is restricted to the amt of monies they spent the previous yr, this current yr, into next yr, starting 10/1, until Congress passes & the Pres signs into law, aprops law. 


So for the future, the near future, there's really no change that's gonna impact of the project.  Uh, just hopefully, the way it looks right now, I would, uh my best guess is that the Congress will probably not get to all of the aprops bills & probably not ours, till after they come back, uh probably a lame duck session, in Nov.  There's a lot of other stuff as you all know, going on like Resolution for Iraq;  they're arguing over the Homeland Security Bill & some of the details in that. 


BW:  So what you're saying is that this FY, we got approximately $4 Million or something like that - CLM: the next FY - BW: & then the next FY - CLM:  No, the next FY, starting 10/1, once the Congress passes the bill - BW: Well, I mean - CLM:  the Senate version is 4 Million Bucks.  The COE, 1-1/2 yrs ago, the COE said they'doh need 4.2 Million.  & now looks like we're gonna get 4 Million from the Senate.  We don't know yet what we're getting from the House version.  See they have to reconcile any differences, if there's a differenceUh, it look, it's pretty clear to me that whatever we end up with when they pass the final bill, uh, we will have as much money that the COE, as much money as the COE can use.  There will be no delays on the project in FY '03, starting 10/1. 


Between now & the time, between 10/1 & the time Congress passes the bill, Congress will have to go pack, pass the Continuing Resolution Authority, CRA, which means that the COE can continue to spend money at the same rate they spent it this yr.  So there'll be no, no hold-ups on the project.   BW:  Oh, ok, I see.   CLM:  If you understand that, explain it to me.  BW:  I thought you were talking about the previous yr.  I was thinkin' you were talkin' about - CLM: It's a  little confusing situation.  BW:  the yr after next.  CLM:  Yeah, that, that's the, problem you're into;  the  COE's always working on last yr, this yr, next yr, & yr after that.  Carol:  Right.  CLM:  Till you get over to the Pentagon, they're working on the next 5 yrs.  So uno, what they call the FYDIT, the 5-yr detention _ _ - DC:  You understand that, Carolyn, _ _ you understand - Carolyn:  You did well! Very good!  (DC chuckles)  CLM:  Spent a lot of time there, figuring it all out. 


JW: Hey, Lee, is that basically in agreeance with what this Post-Dispatch printed today on the front page about the uh budget?  CLM:  Yeah, yeah, they had it pretty, they had it pretty _ - JW:  I mean that's basically when you were speaking, the Post-Dispatch quoted I think just the same exact phrase almost as what you were saying _ _ _ _ _.  CLM:  They had, they had it pretty good, which for the Post-Dispatch is surprising.  _ _ _ _ _ _ _.  


JW:  If the worst-case scenario came up, & uh, could they cut that # that the subcmte has?  Anything's possible, right?  I mean we're settin' here with projections that we HOPE could happen, but could it go back in the original Pres's budget? CLM:  Well, no, theoretically, the full cmte can cut it.  Theoretically, when it goes to floor of the House or the Senate, they can cut it;  but in, uh realistically, the click in the Energy & Water Aprops, the full cmte never cuts up the subcmte reports;  it's never cut in the House floor - JW:  Oh, ok.  CLM:  the Senate floor.  JW: Good.  CLM:  If any, they ADD to it when it goes on the floor. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  20 of 24


BW: I got a one quick ques;  in light of, of this uh, this spreadsheet, which is very, very nice that he came up with;  as far as uh, of property acquisitions, & it looks like, just glancin' at this, at the east end of the 4B project, which is the last leg here, it looks like most all the property's pretty well wrapped up & - EM:  Oh, yeah.  BW:  kind of done.  EM: I think so.  BW:  & it's on the western end that is runnin' into the problems with it.  Does the levee have to wait until all the properties are done before anything can start?  If that's the case, can 4B be split into 2;  to do the east end, to start something happening, so we aren't sittin' here flooded, waitin' for people to decide what they're gonna do? 


JZ:  No, I mean the bi, a big factor is that the g/p is right in the middle, uno ok, of what needs to be constructed;  that's that red.  BW: Ok.  JZ:  & part of the g/p is gonna be taken to an eng'd fill that's over in this area here.  So I mean, to answer your ques, I guess it's conceivable that part of this levee could be built over here because it's som, it's all clay.  But you still would have all this left to be done, ok. 


From the most efficient way is to do it all at one time since you're gonna have to take this g/p & put it, some of it over here & some of it along this area here.  There's an eng'd fill, probably hard to see, but where this is a little bit wider here, this is an eng'g fill between here, all the way over to here;  & then this is an eng'd fill with g/p material, over in this area of AL.  BW:  Oh, I see, I see!  JZ:  So ideally, uno, you just do it all as one big job.  Ok, you take this material off the g/p & go place it as, as you go. 


BW: My, my interest was is tryin' to see if we can get somethin' done _ _ - JZ:  Yeah.  BW:  Catch up on somethin' while we waitin' for property.  CLM:  Some const projects you could; on this one tho, as Jim said - BW:  Yeah, I can see the problem is;  you, you start on the g/f, you gotta go somewhere with all this stuff - JZ: Yeah, &, & there's a, I mean there's a plan that's been, took a long time to develop with the g/p material that's been reviewed by MDNR &, & the St. L County Health & just - BW:  It was just a thought I had.  JZ:  Yeah & it's not a, it's a good thought.  CLM:  Good idea.  JZ:  Excellent thought. 


EM:  &, & just to, most of the lands still necessary on the eastern side, other than the shopping ctr, are really const esmts, &, there, there shouldn't be that big a deal with regard to those because they, they engulf - BW: East end?  EM: On the east end, yeah.  EM:  &, & they actually involve enhancemts to the existing property up there & drainage features.  Um, there, there is one, the one property on Pyramid tho, uh, it's just a, some person who doesn't want to deal with the city whatsoever.  Uh, & there's just not much we can do with that particular _ _. 


BW:  Well, uno, my thought was just going thru this end, the eastern end looked pretty well wrapped up;  the western end is the problem;  why not start on the east & start doin' somethin' instead of - EM:  &, & just so you can envision it too, even tho the western end, AL, we have 4 property owners um, we own well over half of that property needed in there, uh, uh, but by, by acreage;  uh the, the city has - BW:  But you still can't do anything with it until it's resolved?  EM:  That's right, yeah, half is - BW:  Right, half is nothing. Just a thought/ques.  ?: Yeah.  DC:  Does that cover the cost share & fed, sponsor funding. 


JZ: One little point that, I mean Eric showed me a check;  the city has prepared a check for 81,000, which is the, the cash contribution we requested for this coming FY that kind of corresponds with only getting the Pres's budget, ok, next FY.  & so I'm really happy to see that uh that's gonna go into the escrow acct tomorrow & that's good.   ?: Ok. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  21 of 24


DC:  Uh, got the g/p update & I got a report on that;  I gave you some, I'll just give you a little more update.  Uh, last weekend, Mr. uh Beard went down & used the city equipmt & covered up the, some of the manholes & that.  He filled 'em up with dirt in order to keep the people from walking, if anybody would walk in there, would walk into one of 'em. 


Uh, last wk, uh from direction of JZ & TW, uh the city fellas went over & moved dirt & covered up some of the archways that were opening to some of the uh tunnels.  They didn't tear anything down, they just filled up some of the, the voids in there so people can't get into those, some of those - TW: Some of the bigger access points.  DC: in the tunnels.  So uh, that's where we stand right now.  It, it's completely still under contract to Boone Const until some time in Oct, uh when they'll probably go in & uh, do some uh, bat, knock the bat trees down at that time. ?: _ _ _ - ?: _ _ _ Oct. -  DC:  & then they'll, & that will, what they call Phase 1, will probably be, be complete at that time. 


BW:  Uh, with all this, is there gonna be provisions made for the police dept to patrol that area?  DC:  There is.  BW:  They can - DC:  They patrol it now.  BW:  They can get in there with either their ATV or - DC: They get in - TW:  There's actually a road around the whole thing now.   DC:  We have a road.  TW:  Well, I'm gonna use the word road loosely.   BW:  It's a passageway?  TW: (laughing) Yes.  DC:  It's a trail.  TW:  Right.  DC:  But it's a very, it's a very - BW:  Enough for the police dept to make a patrol out of?  DC:  Police dept, right;  & one thing they do, they do some foot patrol, uh walkin' around in there;  & that's why we wanted to get those manhole covers & that all filled up.  They were all located while they were takin' the trees down, & some of these other archways & tunnels & things.  TW:  I, I think we're pretty much at the point where we don't, I don't think we need to go any further.  Um, that's certainly gonna be of interest to bd of ald how much more there is to go. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  22 of 24


CLM:  _ _ _ _ - TW: I guess that leads me to my ques with Jim.  EM: _ _ _ - CLM: _ _ _ - TW:  What is the status of what we had early on, determined Phase 2, which was the next - JZ:  Yeah.  TW:  bidding phase of the overall clearing of  -  (CLM & EM in the backgrnd)  EM:  (Price of  the or plus up to?) 2 is that - TW:  trees.  - CLM:  You're kidding!   EM:  I wish I was. 


TW: _ _ - JZ:  Uh, it hasn't, it hasn't gone out to bid.  Uh, the drawings we first - EM:  the sponsor uh request - JZ:  aired, have, there's some places on those drawings where the city doesn't own the land yet, a few places.  So we can't - we gonna subtract those out - CLM: in his truck -  JZ:  & uh, there's a few little things - CLM:  & I told 'em that you will - JZ:  that we will need to get straightened before we - TW: Can you let Kirk know what those properties are?  JZ:  Yeah.  TW:  & so we can maybe address the rea, make sure there's a - altho we're almost done _ _CLM: _ _ _ _ - JZ: Uno, that makes me - DC:  You probably got those included in there already.  JZ:  I don't think it is.  CLM:  _ _ _ -


Uh, Eric.  CLM: _ _ _ - JZ:  One, one property that's probably not on the list here, is, is whatever's needed for that storm sewer to run uh, from Hiway 141, north of the um, UP track, over to Fishpot Creek.  EM:  It's, it's the Young property.  JZ:  Is that on here?  EM:  Well, no it's not.  It'll either be Young, or that's right of, of way from the RR.  JZ:  Yeah.  EM:  & I'm not sure which one it's going to be.  JZ:  So there may be another - we've already listed the RRs - EM: _ side road is on that.  JZ:  But, uno, uno, this UP is, is a possible Young property now.  JZ:  Which would be, I guess, off of uh - EM:  Be off of Meramec Sta.  JZ:  Meramec Sta. 


TW:  & once we got that squared away tho, apparently that might be a piece of property, Eric, is what you said, what Jim's saying, is that may prevent them to going out to bid on Phase 2?  JZ: Well, uh no, I'm not saying that.  What I'm saying is that the drawings for the Phase 2 tree cutting included that piece of, there's a few little trees on that piece of property & uh, uno, we, we would uh - TW: _ _ - JZ:  We would just eliminate that & not hold buc, hold back, uno - TW: That would be great.  JZ:  tree cutting. 


Altho we'd like - TW: Altho if we could get something described, or is that a property that we haven't acquired yet?  EM:  As far as I know, we have not.  Uh, we, we can look at, at the det basin ROW that we, we acquired, but I know it didn't encompass that far to the north.  JZ:  Yeah, it was an extra piece.  CLM: _ _ _ _ _.


TW:  Well, if there's any way, something we can do as far as a legal or anything, let Kirch know - JZ:  Yeah, actually, that's, that's one parcel that we said we were gonna give you a revised ROW requiremt.  EM: Right.  JZ:   So we need to do that & then you work from there.  TW:  Then we can - ok.  EM:  & I'm still awaiting the const drawings on the RRs.  JZ:  Right.


TW:  So, uh, in the meantime tho, to go fwd with Phase 2, we probably just gonna go ahead & exclude that piece of property so we can proceed with the rest of the clearing?  JZ:  Uhm, yeah, there's - TW:  'cause I think people like Boone & those people were at this phase _ _ in the middle of Nov to go out to bid.  & I think we're there.  BW:  This yr?  TW:  Yes.  BW:  That's awful close to Sept. 


9/16/02 Levee - Section  23 of 24


JZ:  Yeah.  I mean another thing that we, is gonna, the COE's job to do is to, we talked about this borrow area right here -  BW:  Yeah.  JZ:  we need to clear the whole thing & we have to decide if we're gonna take the borrow area.  CLM:  _ _ _ - JZ:  Do we need to clear the whole thing or not?  Uno, so there's, there's other litttle things that we have to resolve before we can have this Phase 2 tree felling. 


TW: Well, I understand;  but can we still under that, that borrow area's not a huge area;  could we proceed with Phase 2 & have that as a change order, or subtract it, either way?   JZ:  Uhhm - TW:  'cause it's a, I, I  know just like everybody else, you go by percentages whether you're can add or subtract from the project, I would assume.  JZ:  Well, I guess our people, our, our, our const, our contracting people, ideally say, you don't go into a contract knowing you're gonna do a change order (laugh).  TW:  Well, everybody says that!.  JZ:  Yeah, you, you get surprised & then you have to do a change order (laugh).  BW:  Be surprised (laugh) !


TW:  Well, my point is, I think we - JZ:  Yeah, your point is can we (wait or weight)-out a pretty good, I mean a very large piece of work - TW:  VERY large piece of clearing like we are, or even talk that things that people in VP are expecting that as part of the problem that was, that had, that we had with the tragedy that was down at the g/p & we need to keep the wheel turning on that.  We REALLY DO! 


JZ:  I don't see how that ties into the tragedy (chuckle).  TW:  No, I mean as far as - JZ:  It's the g/p that we came into - TW:  No, no, no that was all part of the fact that, that brought that to the attn to get everything rolling, to get that clearing done as quick as possible;  as we could call that.  JZ:  The clearing in the g/p, which we, we did separate that out & do that as quickly as possible.  TW:  & I know the clearing at the other areas wasn't the big issue, but I think keep seeing that progressed _ _ - JZ:  It means progress toward a levee which is good.  TW:  Exactly.  JZ: Yeah.  BW:  Very good.   


TW:  Ok, so you, anyway, can you just let me know?  JZ:  Ok.  TW:  'cause I have to report to the bd on the status of that area & uh, even if it's uno, Oct 5th, I think we ought to try to move fwd with awarding that Phase 2 contract.  JZ:  Ok.   TW:  'cause that's what we had agree to with the mayor.  JZ:  Right.  TW:  at that mtg _ _ _ _ _.  JZ:  Ok.  TW:  I think we need to keep that rollin' because Boone will be back, uno Oct 1st or 2nd to - JZ:  They'll, they'll finish their job up.  TW:  Sure, that, it'll only take 'em maybe a day or 2, what they have left to do.  JZ:  Right.  DC: Well, they won't, they said they probably won't be there over a half a day with what they've got _ _ - TW:  Right, sure.  DC:  Is he gonna bring that, bring that piece of equipmt back in there & - TW:  Boom!  DC:  boom!, knock 'em down & pile 'em up on the pile, that's easy.


TW:  But, I think that the, the, the contention was that you potentially, if, if, if it was Boone that got the contract, when they came back in to do the 2nd part of this 1st phase - JZ:  Uhm, I don't think we can make any assumption about who's gonna get the 2nd contract.  TW:  No, I know that, I know that.  But  if they did, then we could just roll.  Is it going to be bid?  JZ:  Uh, even that hasn't been decided yet.  TW:  Right.  JZ:  Whether it'll be thru the same program - TW:  Right.  JZ:  whether palm-up approved - TW: That's, that's why - JZ:  or whether it would go with a, some kind of a competitive bidding.  I'm not sure yet. 


TW:  Right, just, just let me know.  JZ:  Ok.  TW:  'cause that's what was already discussed.  


9/16/02 Levee - Section  24 of 24


DC: Ok, we'll go to uh 8E, Maureen Morris, the levee.  MM:  Yeah, uhm, as far as I knew at the last mtg, only part of my property was required & now all of a sudden, all of it's required.  Why is that? 


EM:  I, I'm not gonna cmt on anything regarding AL, simply because we've got a lawsuit goin' on it, & uh, um - MM:  A lawsuit with who?  EM:  You.  MM:  Will I get a notice?  EM:  Well, I sure would think so.  MM:  I would too (chuckle).  EM:  You might expect a knock on your door pretty shortly.  MM:  I guess nobody else can tell me.  (silence)  Dave? 


EM:  I, I would advise people not to cmt at this point.  DC:  I won't cmt on it because I, I think that's, that's gotta be before, not in front of the Levee Cmsn because that's part of the bd of ald.  They have to make that decision on, on what they're doin' there.  MM:  But you are on the Levee Cmsn & evidently something's changed with the levee that requires more property than what was required last month.  DC:  I have, I have no cmt on that.  I haven't been informed of that, anything like that;  I don't really know. 


MM:  JZ, can you cmt?  JZ:  Nope.  MM:  Colonel?  (no verbal response)  Bob? Bob, is that right (his name)?   BW:  No, I have no idea.  MM:  You can't cmt?  _ _ , can't cmt?  ?: No.  MM:  Tku.  CLM:  Beyond my pay grade, just so - 


MM:  Randy?  RH:  It might be since uh _ _   -   JW:  If I knew the reason, I'd tell ya & I don't know the reason.  So we're gonna have to call him up & poll to find out.  MM:  Tku, tku for that.  DC: I had no idea about it.  Is that all, Maureen?  MM:  I guess!


DC:  Ok, next Levee Cmsn mtg be 10/21, uh at 5:00, same place.  CLM:  You gonna bring Halloween - DC:  CLM:  You gonna bring Halloween candy, Dave.  DC:  Do what?  CLM:  You gonna bring Halloween candy?  JZ:  I'm gonna be out of town next, next month at this time.  CLM: _ _ - JZ:  So be aware that I'm gonna be _ _ with dirty (book?).  ?:  Oh, what the hell, 10 days - BW:  change it to the 31st.  ?:  Maybe you oughta have a party.  DC:  Maybe you oughta give, maybe you oughta gimme a, gimme a buzz.  JZ:  Yeah, I will;  I'll be leaving the 17th so - DC: Of Sept?  JZ:  Of Oct.  DC:  Oct?  JZ:  Yeah. 


CLM: couple yrs ago -  DC:  Ok.  CLM:  Russ Causey  -  DC:  Ok. Well, gimme a , just gimme a buzz - CLM:  Russ Causey _ _ _ _ - DC:  a couple days before or something.  CLM:  he offered to do that _ _ _ _  - DC:  We might have to talk about something anyway.  ?: Yeah. CLM: _ _ _ _ _ -  TW: Just let me know, Jim.  DC:  Uh, I need a motion to adjourn.  JW:  So moved.  DS: 2nd.  EM?:  _ _ said anything about that  -   DC:  All in favor?  (some, possibly all aye)  Motion adjourn.  See you next time, boys. (About 6:20 pm)





The VP Levee Cmsn mtg was held on Mon, 9/16/02, at 5 pm.  Present were:  JW, RH, JZ, BW, TW, DS, JH, CLM, BL, EM.  Also present was Caroline Pelot, Sen Carnahan's Legislative Assistant. 


MM requested to address the cmsn & was agendized under 8E.  JZ reported on regulatory agencies' cmts on the proposed env'l  mit plan heard at a mtg at the COE on 9/5/02, as well as on design issues & their impact on ROW issues.


TW distributed a table of acquisitions to be made & EM cmt'd on an up-to-date status on that table.  CLM reported on on-going congressional negotiations pertaining to the budget.  DC reported on some fill of access points in the glass factory areas together with the imminent commencemt of "Phase 2" of the clearing when bat-mating season ends.  The mtg adjourned at 6:15 pm.




9/16/02  To:  Mayor, VP Levee Cmsn, City Atty & BOA

Subject:  Progress/Coordination Report on Glass Plant Clearing Contract:


On 8/14/02, an on site inspection of the Glass Plant Ruins was made by the COE, Boone Const, St. Louis County DOH/Waste, PH Weis & Assoc & City of VP to work up a purchase order contract to remove all standing timber (excluding the marked bat trees), fallen timber debris & stockpile on site.  All special waste & man-made objects shall be stockpiled on site in separate locations.  The above site contains approx 10 acres. 


On 8/16/02, a purchase order contract was awarded to Boone Const by the St Louis Dist COE Contracting Officer.  On 8/20/02, Boone Const & their sub-contractor, Magurder Excavating, began to mob equipmt & start clearing the Glass Plant site.  On 8/24/02, Magurder Excavating had completed their part of the clearing & stockpiling.  Boone Const is still working on clean-up special waste & man-made objects at the site.