Notes:  Mtg time:  5:05 to 6:10 pm.  No quorum.  


Present:  DM, DC, BW, CLM, EM, JZ, Paul Spotansky of PH Weis, KT, JKB;  JW arrived 5:20. 


Also present:  Jim Mitas of Cgsm Akin's office;  VB, VP Resident & Business Owner;  Andy McCord of DG Purdy.



4/19/04 Levee - Section  1  of  21


DC: Take roll call (see above) Well, we won't have an official mtg tonight because Mr - we only have 3 members here of the Levee Cmsn, but we'll proceed with - we'll have to hold the mins over to the next mtg _ _ _ _.  (Pledge Allegiance)  Uh, any additions or deletions to the agenda?  I have one I'd like to talk about & that'll be under 7B, levee maintenance.  DM:  Is that for mowing?  DC:  Right.  I guess we - the agenda (know?) it can be approved so & we'll hold the mins over till the next mtg to read them, so _ _ _ _.  Discussion items for tonight, Item 4B.  You wanna start, Jim? 


4/19/04 Levee - Section  2  of  21


JZ: Yeah, just a couple of things.  I, I think - maybe Dave knows more about the details of construction than I do because he's been going to the mtgs.  But um, uh, I've got some photographs here.  I know they're still continuing to um demolish the g/p & crush it, & crush it & uh also uh stockpiling cinders & slag as well the crushed concrete in the g/p.  & they've been working on the test fill & working on the, on the eng'd fill, some.  I think they're still working on the uh exactly how - the methodology they're gonna have to use for that. 


& they're - this is showing, this is photographs showing all those activities.  I'm gonna just pass it around to you.  I think there's been uno quite a bit of progress made in the last month.  Um uno & I, I see those pipes, storm drains uh sitting there on the 5th St drain area.  I just took a drive around this evening to see everything uh, uh visible from River Rd & Arnold St & uh, uh Kena & so forth.  There's const from one end to the other. 


Um I guess one of their const related, er related thing is that uno the COE has been communicating with MDNR about wetland mitigation & there was a letter to the COE back in Feb saying uh uno, we're supposed to have our mitigation finished either prior to or concurrent with our impact to the, to the wetland area.  & so our position has been & continues to be that uno we've got this work in the same contract & that's close enough to be concurrent. 


In other words, we're filling a wetland right now;  we've actually started & they - I wrote them a letter saying when we're gonna drain this wetland that's behind Pyramid St & when we're gonna fill it & we're, we're doing that just as we said in the letter; & uh indicated that the contractor will borrow the material out of Simpson Lake Det area which is what we're gonna have as wooded wetland. 


& I also told them - it's kind of a new piece of info - I said we would try or we would uh, we would plan to plant the trees in that Simpson Lake Det area this, this late fall/winter 'cause that would be - that as soon as you can plant trees anyway.  This _ _, it's too late to plant them now & they haven't excavated yet, so that's the very soonest you could plant the trees.  So um having not heard back negative or positive from MDNR, but they're informed.


& uh so next yr uno, we'll use a small amt of money, uh even the money that we have, uno the Pres's budget which is only 2,060,000, they have to put a little bit of that aside to plant these trees to uh comply with, with their um MDNR's requiremts for mitigation.  Just letting uno that's a small point, but I wanted you to know about it.  So that's, that's all I have about Item 4B.  If you have any more details, you're welcome to add 'em, add to it.


4/19/04 Levee - Section  3  of  21


DC:  Uh, just from the report, we're completely finished with uh AL.  It's - the contractor will be digging his inspection trench thru there & will be removing all the underground utilities & everything, & uh taking care of everything in AL. 


We uh, probably next wk, they will start on the 5th St uh - BW: drainage.  DC: drain & uh be cutting the road at uh down there at 5th St.  Uh & that will close River Dr.  Uh the one house on River Dr is now vacant.  It was owned by Mr. Fowler.  It, it's - he's moved out.  & uh the uh Greenway, they were closed on the 2nd house to the east of River Dr & uh that should be, they should be out within about 3 wks, 2 to 3 wks, be gone. 


The contractor has set up his tap on River Dr so the water supply will be adequate down there.  We'll have - while they're there, we'll have a fire plug & fire protection & they'll have clean water due to this contractor hooking up upon his tap from the fire plug.  So that - they probably did that uh I think today or they were down there today;  the plumbers hooked all that up.


4/19/04 Levee - Section  4 of  21


Uh, we have run into one little problem on, at 3rd St uh where the drain is gonna come thru.  Uh, Reichold has a dra - they put water into the river thru a storm drain & uh it's about 400 gallons a min or an hour.  & uh we are going to have to do something.   There are going to have to be a little hold up there because of the fact that we'll have to keep that flow until uh something is worked out where they'll put it into MSD.  The state wants them to put it in the MS, thru their (seep?) line. 


Uh the - they say the water is uh non-toxic;  it's not contaminated & DNR knows that they uh do uh put this water into the river & everything.  BUT there's a definite problem even after the, we reroute this or put this water & keep it flowin' into the river.  Once we set up a det pond & uh route this water in thru the storm sewer, into the, thru the sluice gates at 3rd St, once we have a flood, we will have this water going in the det pond.  BW: At that rate, it's gonna fill it quick. 


DC:  At that rate & if there's any contaminants that they put in there - uh a few yrs ago, a fella & I, one of the fellas from the COE & another fella went down there;  this was an env'list, & him & I, we were lookin' at this manhole.  & we stuck our head in the manhole & this baby backed us off terrible.  I mean there was some solvents goin' thru this thing that were (like chuckle) - of course now nobody believes me because Mr. Meyer passed away & every time we go down there now, that water is, is pretty, it's, there's no stink to it or anything like that.  & they say it's not - all they do is it's cooling water & every so often, they blow the steam outta the boilers & run that in there.  & they've run tests on it & they've agreed to let our env'list & everybody look at those tests & everything.  But I'm not too sure that they don't run some contaminated water thru there now & then. 


EM: If I can add, I - maybe this'll clear up a little bit.  Back when Wainwright was an operating unit that was pumping uh, uh WATER from, from their shallow wells - um Reichold also manufactures its own water & pumped &, & you recall there was a plume over there.  & they're very, as well as the city, back when the city made water, their very action in pumping water depleted the plume.  & that may have been what you smelled. 


Since, since then, they've terminated active uh cleansing over there uh, &, & so there shouldn't be solvents being pumped out;  altho they do still manufacture water as mitigated over there & pump it over there - known for a while & I, I, I don't think it's an issue any more.  So, so this was _ _ _ -


DC: (No or Now?), the, the only issue we'll have is if we close - if we have a flood, at that rate of water comin' thru this thing - I mean there's a lot of water goes thru this pipe.  I mean it's not - there's a steady stream of water goin' thru this thing, not, not just certain times;  this is daily.  There's more sometimes because when they blow that steam off that boilers & that, then it gets - it, it could be warm water. That's when they say the heat maybe is in the water, but they say DNR & that takes, tests it & everything. 


But the fact of the matter is, we're gonna have a problem IN OUR DET PONDS with that flow amt of water goin' into 'em.  There's gonna be water standin' in these things all the time.  AND after we close the sluice gates & have a flood with the storm water & of course the COE says that they figured the amt of water going into there would be the same amt of water that the cotton plant was going to put into the det pond. 


BUT, I, I uno that's uh maybe that's, maybe that's true & maybe it'll work out, but I think that somewhere along the line, we're gonna have to get with Reichold & make some kind of a decision that some of this water is gonna have to GO into the MSD line.  & I don't know when that decision is gonna be made because we're going to have to build, do something with the water right now to put the 3rd St uh, uh storm drain in;  the sluice gate & everything else there because we'll have to uh divert that water.  & uh I think they're have something, uh the COE & the contractor are coming up with some kind of a way to divert this & not cost a lot of money to divert it.  But uh in the plans, this is, this is bein' worked on as we go, but this is one, one problem that we have right now that is.


4/19/04 Levee - Section  5 of  21


Another problem that has occurred is they've ran into some contaminated soil, & but I think it's all uh - as I talked to the contractor this morning & I think all that is about solved.  They're about past it & all the people from, env'lists from the COE were out & the DNR & they're very well satisfied that the contamination is gone.  Did you get that impression too?


Andy: Yeah, I was out there with um Kevin Slattery & (let?) the COE decide & it, it did have kind of an odd odor, but I think we cleared it in the end.  It was just these - was a (suspicion?) of peach pine & vegetation _ _ _ (air?) goin' back in the Meramec 'cause it was giving off some kind of odors.  In the end I think they considered that's really all it was.  DC:  Right. So that - Andy: & at the end of the day that came out of it was real clean except for petroleum hydrocarbons & that could easily come out of _ - DC:  Right.  Andy: _ can probably be fixed maybe.  But to summarize, I think he was - _ was given a _  bill of health as far as (we?), far as _ _ _, but that was (tall & haze?) comin' up.


DC:  We're kind of well clear, cleared up on that.  But like I say, 5th St, probably next Monday, the uh contractor will start on that & cut 5th, uh cut the River Dr there.  Andy: If I could have a little bit - sorry. DC: Hmm? Andy:  I'm sorry.  DC:  & then River Dr will have to be closed at a certain period of time;  the contractor may be able to at certain times put the plates in there & if we have an emergency or something to get up there.  But uh eventually, River Dr is going to be closed, but we're gonna try to keep it open as long as we can uh from Meramec Sta Rd up here, & the, underneath er underneath the uh hwy, & underneath the RR tracks to the boat ramp as long as we can. 


But eventually, when the boat ramp - when they start of 3rd St, it'll have to be cut off there because we're going to build 2 uh emergency roads.  & Mer Sta Rd at AL will probably be cut off that River Dr there at AL & then put the new one in.  & then on the other side of the RR tracks, they'll build another emergency road there.  & so that will be actualy the end of River Dr having access to the boat ramp.  It'll have to come off of Kena to uh the boat ramp.  That area will be completely shut off from any, any traffic goin' thru there if at the end of the project is done. 


The only thing that this affects is the school with their bus routes & we've pretty well got that solved as how the buses are gonna run until the levee is finished.  Then there's gonna be another problem & that'll have to be worked out when the school here starts next year up here.  But these are just little things that are startin' to come up.  JZ:  Yeah. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section  6  of  21


KT: We can't make another boat from a boat ramp at the end of Meramec?  DC: No ma'am.  There's gonna be a - that will be the - it'll have to go over the levee & we were gonna have a big sluice gate there & that on that.  We don't own that property - (MODOT?) -


KT:  & a, & another thing I'd like to ask you;  is Reichold the only one building water up - DC:  At this time - KT: the river - DC:  as far as I know at this time - KT: Valley & from VP?  DC: they're the only ones.  It's a storm, it's a storm drain.  I mean when it rains & we have water, then the water up at this end of town supposedly goes into this 3rd St uh storm drain.


KT:  Ok, but, but they're - DC: But Reichold - KT: 24/7, they are running a pipe full of water thru there right now.  DC:  Who is?  KT:  Reichold?  DC:  Oh, yeah!  This is bigger than a - this is about a maybe uh, what would you say 10?  Uh it's probably a bigger than a 10" pipe;  maybe - Andy: The outfalls that are - DC: Right, out there.  Andy: He said there was a 24" - DC:  24" line.  KT:  How did they get - JZ:  It's not a hole.  KT: permission to do that?  Andy: No, it's not a hole;  it's _ - DC:  I, I have no idea how they got permission to do that, but that was -


Andy:  I can kind of put a little bit more light on this. Both Reichold & Absorbent Cotton had wells, their own wells & they drove the cotton one, (which is?) a good deal more, it was a good deal bigger well & they used, used to use all one Reichold.  Reichold's, um for a long time - it's, it's non-contact cooling water.  So the water that comes out of those just cools their system down & then it, then it's at the storm sewer & out in the river. 


The well water is contaminated because it's from the, it's from the contaminating ground water underneath this part of VP.  & there's, there was one set of data collected from that & it does exceed what the DNR, what, (the or they?) detected data as it came out of the pipe at 3rd St;  what _ _ _ I forget now which one.  ?: 3rd.  Andy: &, & it did exceed the, the allowed limits;  but I - JZ?: _ _ _ _ _ - Andy:  When I spoke -


KT:  So now they're going thru Ameron er uh American Water?  Andy:  Um, I'm sorry.  KT:  Are they, are they taking in American Water now or are they still - Andy:  No, it's still well water.  Still well water.  KT: It's still well water. 


Andy:  The thing was that when we applied for the, the city's permits for the det basin, to discharge from that, in the end, the DNR waived the need for, for a permit.  But at that time, I did inform the DNR that this discharge was taking place;  & they were kind of aware of it beforehand, but that, that it wasn't permanent.  Now somebody tells me recently that Reichold is not permitted to do that.  If that's happened, it's happened very quickly & I don't know when, when that took place.  I need to take a look into that some time. 


But the fact of the matter is - KT:  I mean they're really clampin' down on that _ _ _.  Andy:  The, the fact of the matter, the, the water that comes out of those pipes has already lost quite a lot of its contamination because it's, because it, it's all molded & it's enclosed;  it's, it's getting churned up some.  KT:  & they can't recycle it?  Andy:  No, because it's already hot;  it's already warm;  it's not hot water;  it's only warm.  They need to have it cooler than ground water so they discharge it _ waste warm water.  The, the issue that's not come up - KT: Are they using it for cooling, to cool their engines, to cool their - Andy:  Whatever processes they have there.  I _ _ _ _ processes.


CLM:  What they could do is - Andy:  If they are not contaminated, they are not contaminating this as far as anybody's aware because the DNR clearly will not allow that.  So I don't think they contaminated it.  Now is there an occasion sometimes when some other water, contaminated water enters the same storm drain?  That's perfectly possible. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section  7 of  21


CLM:  They could be required to have a holding basin prior to pumpin' that kind of discharge in the river.  Andy:  They could.  They'd probably kick up a bit of a storm on that because they'd say well, it's not our contamination (chuckle).  BW: If they got a closed system where they're usin' this straight for cooling, they're not introducing anything, but temperature to it.  Andy: &, & Pat Conroy, who did all the work for the si_,  all the work for the sizing of the basins, etc, he was aware of this input.  He did NOT seem to be concerned about that level of add'l water going into those det basins. 


DC:  I, I know that.  Andy:  Yeah.  DC:  I mean it's - but I guess it's somethin' that uno we're just gonna have to work on.  I mean the, the fella from Reichold said that the state would like for them uno uh to get that into MSD, into the, into the regular sewer.  Andy: & MSD declined because of the sheer volume;  they don't have the capacity.


DC:  But in order for them to do that, that's gonna cost 'em MONEY to relocate or do this change-over from what they've got & so I mean I guess it's gonna be worked out some way or another.  I mean we're gonna come up with a diversion to keep the water flowin' so we don't have to uno - some of this water from the cotton plant NEVER went into the storm sewer.  They just let that lay out on the ground in back of cotton plant between the, in that swale between the cotton plant & the g/p.  & it just laid on the ground & eventually went into the ground water & everything else.  (Note: LEV 7/15/02 is one of several other mtgs re contamination.)


But now, the cotton plant is gone, so now we've got Reichold.  But hopefully we'll work something out in the event that this does cause a problem in the future.  But right now we're gonna - they're comin' up with a plan to divert this water & - Andy: Are they gonna use a pipe?  'cause that was one of the concerns.  I think if they were to divert that water over land, thru along the ditch - DC: Right.  Andy:  that's, that's gettin' a little close to uno - KT: _ _ -


DC:  Well, they're tryin' to run a, gonna try to divert it in a pipe - Andy:  In a pipe, that's what we talked about Friday.  DC: & the pipe's alongside of where it is now & maybe relocate the det, uh the uh sluice gate & that a little off of this other line, off of the (main?) line that's there now;  & then keep the thing flowin' & then use that uh new location.  But this - probably know more about this  Thursday at the uh Progress Mtg, what really they're gonna do over there because they're gonna be movin' along on this pretty well.


BW:  What - if some - the cotton factory uno is no longer in business there;  if that building is sold & the new owners, whoever, they meet, maybe would wanna use that well.  Is there any gyrations they have to go thru to do that?  If their well is bigger, is that gonna cause a problem with a flood situation & if they're using the volume of water & dumping it into retention? 


Andy: Apparently it wasn't a concern _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 'cause he did the math - JZ:  I have a - Andy?: It's a pretty small amt of water _ - JZ: I have a concern about it.  I have a concern about it, but I (pause)  BW:  Well, are, are they gonna - if somebody would come in there & decide, uno buy the building & decide well, we wanna use the pump - JZ:  I think - BW: uno, on the well.  JZ: if we get to that point, we oughta all put our heads together & decide whether we're gonna let them do it.


BW: Well, do they have to come & get a permit to do that?  JZ:  I don't know.  They may have to get a permit from the city.  I don't - BW: To operate a well within the city?  EM:  They, they, depending on what their business would be, they'd have to come to the city for a business permit.  BW: Right, but that wouldn't include the - EM:  We'd have to take a look at it.  There, there's also some laws out there as far as abandonmt of wells &, & this may be construed as an abandoned well since it hasn't been used for, what 90 days now.  BW: Couldn't get a _ permit.  EM:  By law they have to be capped & permitted & everything else, so - Andy: I wouldn't - EM: it's something we'd have to _ -


Andy: I wouldn't say this 'cause the DNR LIKE those wells running because it tended to pull the water away from Kirkwood.  I think Eric alluded to that earlier.  EM:  Right.  Andy: They, they like to have those wells running as much as possible because it's actually helping the, the decontamination _ _ _ - EM: Our - I don't know - BW:  Even if it's dumpin' it back on the ground?  EM: Our, our whole end of town - Andy: It is gonna protect the river.  Much of it is already being removed during the cooling process.  So in fact in other words, it wasn't really pure contaminated water going in.  I mean it wasn't _ _ part of the dirt - (some chuckles) It wasn't (more chuckles) this draft to have that water going into the river & it was probably decontaminated, decontaminated water going into the river.


EM: But the, the whole end of town that we're located in now was polluted many, many yrs ago by trichloroethylene & it's with - was an industrial solvent - & it was just used & dumped out before people knew what pollution was all about.  So it's still in _, the plume is in our ground water system now.  The more water that's pumped out, the more water that dissipates & hopefully this stuff - Paul: Kind of flushes.  EM: goes in the atmosphere.  KT:  Right.  EM:  You done, David? 


DM:  So if a company did come in, similar use to what they're doin' now, should we I guess talk to you first, Jim?  Or who should they check to make sure we're - JZ:  Well, I think uno, you oughta talk to your consultant & just talk to the - DM:  Sit down & talk- JZ:  COE about quantity of water coming into the det area & the quality;  uno, talk to your consultant.  DM: Start with Danny & go -


4/19/04 Levee - Section  8 of  21


JZ: There may be a, a plan for something completely different at that site uno rather than - BW: That they never - JZ: the plant that uses - BW: you could use a well.  JZ: that uses the warmth.  BW: Yeah, what I'm wonding, if somebody'd come in & start using the wells & you wouldn't have to have a permit or talk to anybody except for maybe like you said uno that it's - CLM:  I think - BW: laws according to abandoned wells.


CLM:  It think the key is if somebody wants to come in & operate a business, they have to come to the city & be issued a permit.  JZ: Yeah, I think that is the key.  CLM:  The city then has the leeway - JZ:  The city will know about it 1st uno so they should be coordinating.  DC& BW:  Right.  ?:  Right.  BW: & hopefully at that time, somebody will know - JZ:  & they'll have a responsibility to operate & maintain the det area so they're certain to have a reason to consult with the COE about it. There's a significant amount of water coming _ _ _ -


Andy:  In new permit applications for, for that road on behalf of the city, it made it very clear that the city could not & would not be responsible for any contamination or any issues directly related to wells.  _ _ problems, it's your responsibility as you generate the water that contaminated the water.  BW&JZ: Yeah.  Andy:  So that was made very clear in the application to the, to the state.  &, & Tom Seigel at the St L office, he's, he's aware of that.  He may well have worked on this, but he was a little concerned about the permits _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. 


BW:  On the Reichold well, or the pumping, can that be pumped over the levee?  Or have its own pipe goin' thru the levee?  Andy:  They're pretty decent sized pumps for this area.  JZ:  There's a variety of ideas I guess.  I could picture a pump that goes in that has the same capacity;  just takes water out of the det area & puts it over the levee.  BW:  Right, instead of a dedicated - JZ:  Instead of - CLM:  There's a lot of ways to solve that if the problem arises.  JZ:  Yeah, & I don't know how much of a problem the Reichold water is.  I know I've, I don't have a clear answer of the hydraulics, but - (someone coughing) _ -


Andy: _ _ this is a lot of it's contamination during their, their figures.  JZ:  I'm not thinking about contamination;  I'm thinking about the - JZ&CLM:  quantity - BW:  the volume - (a few echo) Andy:  Oh, I'm sorry.  JZ: use a different det area.  Andy:  It's in the hundreds of thousands.  DC:  Some, what - 430;  they judged 430 upm or somethin' like that - Andy:  Yeah, _ _- DC:  that they're puttin' out.  There's a tremendous amt of water & they admit they're use, their, they, that's their, their _ -


CLM:  I think the main thing is that the COE needs to be given, hydraulics, needs to be given info about what is the outflow that's coming in there;  then they can calculate & based upon their storm water - DC:  Well, they've come up with that figure.  I mean it - we can - the det pond & everything (will?) take that much water because the cotton plant is gonna -


JZ:  Well, uno part of the picutre is a det pond isn't used very long either, so.  DC:  Right.  JZ:   Because the water, it goes up & down the river, so.  BW:  In the worst case scenario - JZ:  I know they're considerin' it, so I just need, I'm gonna talk to him & find out - CLM: _ _ - DC:  But like I say, Thursday, we'll probably have something uh to work with with the 3rd St uh diversion & everything like that;  we'll be workin' around this.  But it may come up at a later date - JZ:  That's a good point, Dave.  DC:  Ok, uh -


4/19/04 Levee - Section  9 of  21


EM:  As uno, as part of our LCA with the gov't, it's the city's responsibility to do all utility relocations.  So this month, um actually it was last mo, St L County Water uh built a parallel main in Marshall.  It was an 8" water main on River Dr that supplied the, the Meramec Valley Plaza & some of the other businesses, Carol House & uh, I guess The Elevator.  That main was shifted to uh Marshall Rd uh at the city's expense;  ultimately, we'll have to bear that. 


Uh as a result of the shifting, obviously laterals had to be moved & the city entered into a contract with uh Kokesh Plumbing who was hired by Mo Am Water initially to do the main relocation.  Uh & because Mo Am Water actually took it on themselves to do the lateral work, um the city went ahead &, & picked up that contract. 


Uh, what happened was is that Kokesh Plumbing was actually kicked off the uh Meramec Plaza Shopping Ctr property by the owner, um & he had a litany of, of problems.  Um, we've went in & we negotiated a license agreemt with him & we provided him with assurances, insurance & so on & so forth.  & we have now completed at least a (WEIR?) line on his property.  Um step 2 is we've gotta complete a line along the RR tracks.  Um & that will then free-up the abandonmt of that River Rd uh water main.


Um we have to keep water FLOWING out there, altho I'm really heartened to, to know that everybody's moved out of  River Dr.  We don't have to keep drinking water to 'em now, but for fire protection purposes, we have to keep it within a hydrant distance of 200' I believe;  & we can do that to the east.  Um so we can cut that main off now & then close down River Rd. 


Um (Dandy Roombright?) - (someone coughing) I think the contractor is some $67,000 if I'm not mistaken.  JZ?:  Sounds right _ _ - EM:  Um we're right, right on the money.  It may be less than that but um it's something that, that we owe;  we'll have to pay. 


There was one other issue that cropped up &, & we won't get into it now.  Uh businesses that have automobile related uh work, have to have an oil separator in their sewer system.  & one, when we put it in a water line, we discovered this vault that appears that it may be on city property.  & this is a vault that has a, a, a cha, chambered tanks that oil...(exchange tapes)


...takes storm water, but that we need to put into the levee.  & so we're gonna have to work with the, the, the private landowner on that.  There's issues as to where it'll be relocated at.  If it's on our property, it may & probably is a trespass;  so we, we've got some issues like that.  Uh the 3rd issue with him is we, we have proposed an esmt along the RR tracks on his property;  haven't gotten that back. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section  10 of  21


& FINALLY, we've settled his case, um assuming the mayor's gonna sign the letter that he has, um he did have.


As, as uno, we have several exceptions pending due to people not being happy with awards from the Condemnation Cmsnrs.  So this is, is one of them that uh is being settled hopefully today, uh for no monetary consideration uh at all.  So uh we did settle another one today.  Uh we were actually supposed to be in court today & uh that was settled by authority of the BOA with a slight monetary consideration.  Uh & I'll be asking the BOA tonight for authority to settle a 3rd case.  That'll leave us with uh basically 2 remaining cases.  We're making progress.


4/19/04 Levee - Section  11 of  21


KT: I have 2 ques.  Uh #1, is that mess that is outside The Elevator between the hwy & The Elevator part of that uh water main moving?  EM:  I believe that it is, yes.  KT:  Uh whose responsibility is it to clean that up?  EM:  That's the MO Am Water Co main.  Um I don't know why it's been left open.  I just don't know!  That's something that maybe - KT: It doesn't look real well for the (state?).  EM:  It's something we maybe need to address with uh, uh Jim who's in contact with 'em.  It may be that they need to leave that open to do the final tap.  Honestly, I don't know;  I'm not quite sure.  If they do need to make a bore, another bore uh over on the Carol House side, underneath Marshall Rd, & that's the bore that'll come down the RR tracks _ _-


4/19/04 Levee - Section  12 of  21


KT:  & another thing is uh there are some grants available thru different business organizations, LARGE business organizations uh for things such as this that the cities can't afford.  Have you looked into any of them?  Chrysler is one of 'em that uh has grants available.  EM:  Uh th, this is paid for out of TIF money & we do have money in order to do relocations. 


& no, I haven't looked uh I haven't looked at any grants for this sort of thing.  These are things that - KT:  I was just looking thru the Chrysler Grant Fund today & um it - I know, I know you have to word a grant JUST RIGHT in order to get uh a grant & they have given uh up to $700,000 to different cities for different things that the cities need.  EM:  Be happy to work with ya & be more than happy to see what you got & I'll be happy to help you work with it or whatever.   We can always use the money, that's for sure! 


CLM:  These are grants that aren't directly related with something Chrysler is doing & wants done, it's just saying, hey, the city needs help?  KT:  They have so many different categories & uh of course education is one, non-profit organizations is another;  the LEVEE would be a PERFECT one for Chrysler to get a hold of & to uh be associated with as far as giving a grant.  So I - BW: Part of those grants cover adjoining - KT: There was 20 different projects down there.  BW: municipalities of Chrysler's properties. Uh - CLM: Yeah, that's - BW: _ breaks it out.  CLM: what we're getting at.  BW: Yeah, it is something to look into.  EM:  Be happy to look into it, but, but it, -


?: Storm water - EM: basically, the money that, that is being paid for this is coming out of our, our TIF uh accounts & we get credit for it toward our local share as we probably would with a non-federal grant too.  KT: We'll get refunded that?  It'll - is that going to come from the state or the federal gov't or anything?  EM:  No.  KT:  It just comes from the taxpayers?  EM:  Absolutely. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section  13 of  21


BW: The 2 houses on River Rd, I take it there are gonna be no more residences down there in the near future?  DC: They'll demolish 'em.  BW:  So there'll be no services provided down there, that, uno the fire protection, none of those issues, fire protection & so forth?  EM: There's actually, is it 4 or 3? 


DC:  Well, the ones on the other side - DM: _ down there & one of the far 2 is _ itself. _ _ - EM:  So we've got just, just one & he'd be the far - ?: the far one.  BW:  east one.  DM: Right.  EM: He's kind of far out. 


KT: With the boat ramp down there, shouldn't there be uh services to them such as - DC:  Well, there'll be, there'll be an active water main up to about oh, I guess some couple hundred feet maybe above the uh boat ramp on, on - KT:  Ok, I guess what I meant was uh fire dept, ambulance, emergency - DC: They'll have service.  KT:  Will there be - DM: There'll be a road to it.  KT: access to it?  DC: There'll be service.  The only access to the boat ramp will be off of Kena & River Dr once the levee is finished.  That'll be the only access.  The other 2 roads will be nothing but emergency & there'll be limited access to them. 


KT: If we were to advertise uh, uh recreation facilities, would it be uh would the road to it be good enough to encourage people to use that boat ramp?  DC:  Well, I'm sure the city's gonna maintain that.  DM:  We're required to by the state since they're putting in a ramp, have a road access _ - DC: Oh, they've approved it.  KT:  Ok.  DC: & of course there's gonna be a trail there.  KT:  Yes, I realize that.  DC:  There's gonna be a trail that's built along there. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section  14 of  21


Ok, city cost share, TPC - is that - do we need to get into that or is that pretty well (pause) - JZ: I don't think there's anything on that.  EM: Yeah, I mean we're still running the tab & computing costs.  At the end of the project, there'll be a day of reckoning & everybody's on target pretty much uh with our projected costs, their projected costs & we'll find out if there's any blips there, _ _ for Change Orders & that kind of sort of thing.  I guess that'll cover the Item D & C.  All I can say is the contractor - JZ:  No, it doesn't cover Item C.  I was gonna _ _ - DC: Ok.  The contractor - JZ: _ _ _ _ -


4/19/04 Levee - Section  15 of  21


DC:  The contractor is uh still sayin' that he's gonna work on this project until it's done.  I mean he's not gonna quit. They're not gonna - if they're gonna pull off, they're gonna give us 30 days, but they're not gonna - they're proceeding with it.  BW: What, has uh, their prognosis of the completion date changed at all?  Better or worse?  DC:  No, I mean they have - JZ:  Last date that we have, that I have is 4/05.  DC:  5, that'll be uno - KT:  Isn't that wonderful?  ?:  Yeah.  KT:  That's fantastic. 


DC:  They're gonna bring in more, more equipmt.  I will tell you that possibly, by the time summer is here, you will see more equipmt.  I don't know where they're gonna put it all, but they'll have the Sports Complex full of equipmt I guess when I get all that stuff.  I've never seen that much equipmt (someone coughs) done before that they have down there right now.  I mean it's - & they're gonna bring more in.  They're gonna bring more people. 


So we have to have all these ends tied up because I think what's gonna happen is they're gonna start workin' both, both ends of this once they get this - start haulin' this dirt & get this all blended & everything & get this dirt.  I mean they're already building a levee;  portions of it thru the Sportsplex.  They're already goin' & buildin' the levee from the edge of where the g/p to the existing levee down at Pharoah.  They're already buildin' the levee.  Once they get their blending & everything agreed, they'll uh, they'll start up in probably AL & get that - start haulin' up there _ _ _. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section 16  of  21


JZ:  The contractor did not earn uh enough money in March to run out of money.  BW:  Whoa!  JZ:  'cause they're, they were slow in March with some rain, but uh they are not in levee default.   (they laugh) So they had like $180,000 - CLM:  So they go from (free lay?) to (bin?).  BW:  Yeah!  JZ: Yeah, well they only had $1.3M in the contract.  Uno it's a $14M contract. 


So anyway um, yeah, we uno, we met, it's now been more than a month, with Jim on the phone with Eric & the colonel & our, our top managemt, & kind of devised a strategy of what we're gonna do to try to get money.  & I think everybody's still proceeding along that line which is to try to get money transferred in if possible;  & uh try to get add'l aprop in FY04 if that's possible;  & to make sure we request as much money as we need for FY05.  & then uno besides that, we'll ask for money in FY06 uno to cover whatever's not covered. 


& there was a kind of a paper that I handed out just prior to that mtg & I was asked to improve on that a little bit & we're gonna send this to our division office.  I just did that today;  uh as far as I sent it to uh top managemt & nobody has had a chance to review or cmt on it yet. 


But it's very similar to the last uh package you all rcv'd.  & I included this photograph of the flood of 1994 as an example of the flooding & I am include this photographs I just passed around as an example of where the contractor is today as far as the progress of const;  & then go on & talk about the risks assoc'd with stopping work.  & there's a whole long list of serious, serious problems if work is stopped;  flooding of VP is the main thing;  flooding could happen while a contractor is not making progress.  So we wanna keep proceeding.  I'm just pointing that out & then I keep coordinating with our Div & try in every uh in every way to get more funds in to pay this contractor. 


CLM: Yeah, I'd like to add that;  that paper Jim had before & I'm sure it's been improved upon even more to go to Div & then to the Chief's office, ultimately is important because we wanna keep the pressure on & keep them informed about, uno don't get weak-kneed now, fellas, & say maybe we better stop the contractor.  We're too far along & we don't want to & there'd be a lot of negative repercussions.  I'm sure that the Congressional Delegation will be very upset if the COE would decide to stop the contractor. 


As Jim has made clear, the St L Dist STRONGLY is pushin' to keep the contractor goin' long as he wants to.  & as Jim said, we do have this 3-pronged effort out.  The delegation, we provided all the facts & #'s about various options & uh we are pushin' it.  One, to get money in a supplemental aprops bill this yr if & when there is one.  Two, assuming that we get none in there, we're encouraging the Chief of Delegation, encouraging the COE to Washington level, to push any money they find that the context says during this yr, to the St L Dist for our project.


Three, assuming we don't get any money from either one, we've asked the delegation to ask for the MAXIMUM amt of money, 2005 that would be required to finish paying the contractor if we don't get any more money at all this FY.  So these things are all on-going & every indication is good;  & Jim in Todd Akin's office, & some in the 2 Senators' offices that they're very supportive of what we're trying to do, as is the St L Dist.  So I guess bottom-line is uh everybody's doin' everything that we can do now that we should do & can do. 


KT:  I hope everybody realizes how blessed we are that this contractor is willing to risk his Millions of dollars to cont'd spoils.  CLM:  He said that - I was not surprised that he elected to do that because he's a good contractor & he's got his own body, a larger corp, that can afford to serve this cause 'cause in the long run - KT: Yeah, _ _- CLM:  he'dve benefited when he finally got paid for it.  DC:  Finished?  CLM: Yep.


4/19/04 Levee - Section  17 of  21


DC: Uh I'll go with Item Levee Maintenance - Uh we have an agreemt with the COE that we will maintain to cut the grass on the levee, &/but I think the Levee Cmsn has to start to look to the future.  & it's 2004 & possibly in a yr, we'll have the levee finished, & we're going to have to maintain it.  About 2 or 3 yrs ago, we bought some uh equipmt to cut the levee;  & uh it is uh sufficient.  It isn't the best equipmt;  it is good machinery, but it's - & we do, the guys do a great job when they cut the levee & everything else, but the equipmt is not what we need when we finally get this levee turned over to us & maintain it. 


& what I'm gonna propose to the Levee Cmsn if they'll let me do, along with JM, is we're going to contact some people to see how much it would cost for us to contract with them to cut the levee for us uh at 3 to 4 or how many times uh they usually do this cutting on the levee with their equipmt.  & then we're going to try to get some uh bids on a piece of equipmt to uh maintain it ourself. 


JMitas:  Is there any maint besides mowing the grass?  DC:  Besides mowing grass?  Uh that is the big, gonna be the big - JZ:  Well, there'll be some other maint.  DC:  There'll be other maint, but - JZ:  Gate wells & relief wells & a few things like that.


DC:  We take, we do that right now.  We go in & we're going to be doing some cleaning on the closure structure gates & checking uh all the uh sluice gates out & greasin' 'em & opening & operating, go check 'em & everything;  but the grass cutting is possibly the most important thing that we will have to do.  & it's gonna be a big job & it takes some big equipmt to bid.  The people that did it before, borrowed (secord?), uh contractred with some people & we intend to uh contract them & maybe some others & get some bids to see how much it's gonna cost us to have this done per yr as maint where our people don't have to do it


& then we'll get price of equipmt.  Uh we, we got some prices here as you go on the equipmt & was just outrageous as we would have to pay an amt of money for a piece of equipmt that would only be used for the levee & then set on our parking lot for uh months & not be used for any other op.  It would be too - this equipmt that this fella cut the levee with last yr was a huge piece of equipmt.  It's not -


CLM:  There's one thing that you might want to look into & that is, when you're considering what, what it costs to buy the equipmt;  & that is there are other levee districts in the area that are building 500-yr levees or improving the others to 100-yr levees, that may not have the equipmt;  might be facin' the same thing.  You might uh, there might be an opportunity there to use that & help defray the cost of the equipmt by doin' it with other areas.  DC:  Maybe they do have equipmt that they use.  I don't know how, how - the COE, they contract with some uh people to cut levees. 


CLM:  I was thinkin' for example, Howard Bend Levee Dist is just building their levee with private money actually (from payers?).  So I'm sure they haven't geared up yet, but the levee is not completed yet & they need grass _.  DC:  Well, there are certain avenues that we, we'll go thru to kind of look at & see, try to get some costs & present to the BOA or the Levee Cmsn & then to the BOA;  how much this would cost us a yr to maintain it with our own equipmt, buy this equipmt or else maintain it thru some contracts with other uh with people that do this. 


JMitas:  Well, rather than pay to mow, could you put up electric fences & have somebody pay ya to graze their animals out there?  DC:  (chuckle) Well, I don't know.  JMitas:  City's maint -  BW:  I could bring some chickens down (he laughs).  JMitas:  I'm serious.  DM: There's some - JMitas:  _ places around where people - ?: _ _ - JMitas: _ feed or graze animals.  _ _ - DC: I saw on the news this morning that California is puttin' up electric fences & they're puttin' goats out on the brush that eat the brush off that's  4' high or something, to cut down on the fire out there, but uno, I don't know.  That would be up to the City of VP if they wanted to fence it off. 


CLM:  You'd have to train your goats to only eat down to a certain height.  JMitas:  You'd have to move 'em every - somebody's gonna have to have that stipulation 'cause - BW:  Cheaper.  JMitas:  you can't leave 'em so long;  they - (they laugh) DC:  I won't get into that.  Just the mowing op is going to be a big expense to the City of VP;  the maint of the equipmt that's there.  I mean you use it so little - CLM:  Yeah, that's why I think - DC:  as long as you maintain it - CLM:  use it for other districts. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section 18 of  21


JW: This might be brief, chair question, maybe Eric's probably gonna have to answer it.  Who would decide & can decide if we would want to do a levee dist? 


EM:  A, a, a 4th class city has no right or power to do its own levee dist.  So to get a levee dist started, it actually takes a petition by the people in the levee dist itself.  Those people file a petition with county court, which is actually another county council, um for the formation of this levee dist.  & they set it up where then they're assessed by the amt of benefits derived from the levee.  It's a special benefit dist.  So they would have a tax over & above what the rest of VP would pay going thru this special tax based on how far you are from the levee;  the size of your property;  what you do. 


JW: So a person that lives, I don't mean this "on the hill" - EM: Uhuh.  JW:  wouldn't pay as much as somebody that would be affected by the levee?  EM:  A person that would pay on the hill would pay NOTHING because he would not be benefited like - BW:  Not protected by the levee at all.  EM: _ dist - JZ: It's a benefit - may have some of the people live on the hill will have to send their kids to the school.  EM:  Well, yeah, but the school dist has property - CLM:  The school dist will actually pay taxes.  EM:  That, that's right.  ?: (gettin' old?).  EM:  As well as the hwy!


JW: Oh, I'm not worried about - JZ: maybe you guys sit down _ - JW: why a levee was completed, & maint items like this & uno mowing & I just wonder if that would be an option - EM: Sure!  JW: to be considered.  EM: Absolutely, it's an option.  You've gotta take a look at, at, at what it's gonna cost.  Uno I, I think we've always kind of a rule-of-thumb thought maybe 50 Grand a yr or so, & we're not sure - DC:  No, I'm not, I wouldn't say that might be a ballpark figure.  I -


JW:  Does Chesterfield have the levee districts?  CLM: Yeah, Eric & I have discussed this in the past - I think you even talked with David too - EM:  Sure we did.  CLM:  the atty out in Chesterfield Levee Dist, & uh that's, it's a little different situation that you have an area there where everybody is clearly enclosed in the levee.   Whereas here, you've got an area where the levee ties into, to high ground & properties that aren't actually protected. 


But as Eric said, basically, you, you have to get the court approval;  set it up & the levee dist will become like a uh public entity, like a city, a municipality;  it has taxes & so on.  EM: It's a special - it has its own Bd of Directors, um that's not appointed really by - it has NOTHING to do with the city -


CLM: But they're _  - JW:  That might be a good thing;  not knockin' the city, but - EM:  It could.  JW:  it might be a good thing.  EM: Altho, altho it's weird;  I mean the CITY OWNS THE LAND &, & you may have to convey ownership of that land to the levee dist.  CLM:  You're talkin' about the land that the levee actually sits on.  Like in Monarch Chesterfield, there's a levee dist itself OWNS that property & even has esmts further out than the toe on both sides & the property owners, it's just like before, they were to maintain, have access to, (barely audible) & form leases on;  totally separate gov'tl body. 


JW:  From the city's aspect & your personal viewpoint, is it good or bad if you'd wanna consider something like that?  EM:  Uno you, you can look at it in 2 ways.  Um the people down here by & large, this, this is the lowest economic segment of the cmty.  Um - JW:  Right, but they might not be in the near future.  EM: Well, that's very true, that's very true. 


But I guess what - BW: (been widened??) - (JW laughs) EM:  I'm saying is, uno, if, if you're doing, if you're doing - BW: (contract jobs?) - EM: progressive taxes, you're, you're casting a tax burden on, on these people that wouldn't be shared thruout the cmty, but yet this is a cmty benefit levee as a whole.  The only reason I say that is it's gonna attract new business - JW:  Right.  EM: which SHOULD raise the entire tax value of, of the city.  So it's, it's really a political decision; as, as well as dollars & cents that, that you guys will, will probably wanna consider in a couple yrs, once you start gettin' those bills coming in. 


CLM:  & once the developmts begin to take place, then you'll have a different public reaction to the subject of, are you interested in forming a levee dist.  JW:  Right, the homeowners actually wouldn't want it right now.  You might own a home _ _ _ _ _;  & maybe new businesses, but might not be scare them off if they found out there was a levee dist in (town?). 


EM: Yeah, but one big thing that, that may really sway you would be IF this reconnaissance (recon) study uh that, that  Congress has authorized comes to fruition & they wanna take our, our levee from a 125-yr levee or 100-yr levee up to a 350, or 400-yr levee, that's gonna involve substantially more cost.  Uh we may be TIF'd out uh by that time & if, if - JW:  Then you'd have to have the dist probably to build the extra flood protection. 


CLM:  That would be a - you must have a local sponsor to start this thing from a local sponsor.   In the case of Monarch Chesterfied, the Levee Dist IS the local sponsor;  not the City of Chesterfield.  EM:  Other entities do it differently!  The City of St L for instance, that is not a levee dist;  that is wholly owned & op'd by the City of St L.  St. Peters, I think that's a municipal levee - ?&?: _ _ _ _ - EM: as well.  JZ:  Cape Girardeau.  EM:  & out at Ste Gen, that's, that's a weird one _ - JZ:  That's a combination;  city plus the levee dist _  -    


CLM: Generally, levee dists occur when you have a agricultural deal & the farmers got together & decided to tax themselves to protect their cropland & houses;  that's generally, a rural area.  Generally, when you have to start out from (an aluminized?) area & build a levee thru the organized area, the local gov't body, that usually ends up as the local sponsor. 


BW: Isn't _ _ _ levee dist?  JZ: Of course right now, the City VP's signed a legal agreemt to be the top _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - (JW laughs)  BW: So there, there's no argumt - DM:  Is that perpetuity - JZ:  Yeah!  DM: or is that - JZ:  Yeah!  DM:  or if the levee dist takes it over, then - CLM: _ - JZ: Well, (once or unless?) you('ve) change(d?) it, but - CLM:  If a levee dist will organize - DM:  As long as it's not the COE, you're happy with it? (several laugh) CLM:  What the COE looks at - DM:  We're gonna have to throw rocks - CLM: The COE - DM: you've had it, city, take it unless you can find somebody else to go - JW: _ bringin' his lawn mower out next yr. (laughter) DM: _ his riding lawn mower & (they laugh heartily) Coke or Coca-Cola & have at it. 


CLM:  What would have to happen is if the levee dist were organized, then the levee dist would to AGREE to accept from the city in a legal manner, in a legal doc, the responsibility from the COE 'cause the COE would be looking to somebody to, that was legally capable of assuming responsibility of accepting responsibility so that the COE would be protected legally. 


EM:  Just as on the side, I, I, I have my office & it's a condominimum that I share with 4 other people & I'll tell you, it's an eye-popping experience when you get that tax bill from the uh Special uh Monarch Levee Dist.  It's very expensive;  it's uh close to being equal to your regular real property taxes _ _ _.  Real costly!  So it's, it's not a cheap proposition.  I mean it's different over   there because they are actually building a levee, not just maintaining one.  JW: Then I'm not movin' to Chesterfield. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section 19 of  21


DM:  I was gonna ask about the grass cutting.  Is there something we could plant?  I think we tried it before;  instead of grass, that would maintain the dirt, but not grow that we wouldn't have to mow it?  Or some kind of - JZ:  Umm, I guess we've had the best luck with, with the grasses. Uno they have to be mowed - DM:  The other things that don't hold the dirt.  JZ: so they don't let other things grow up uno like the Crown Vetch that we've had to fight.  DC:  Crown Vetch. 


JZ: Generally, uno grass is - it works on all, all the levees around.  DM:  Grass is about the only thing that maintains the dirt?  JZ:  Yeah.  Things like Crown Vetch DO NOT work.  KT:  Is there a certain type of grass that does(n't?) - JZ: Yeah, there's, there's a seed mixture that we've designed on the levee.  DC: They plant it - that they plant on all - CLM: Recommend it - DC: Of course you do - DM:  No ivy or - DC: We've had everything - KT: for the levee.  DC:  You get everything that's comin' in, but it - ?: _ _ - ?: _ _ - JZ: No, you wanna be able to inspect the levee & see, make sure there's no (anvils?) or burrows & all that stuff.   DM: Grass is the best thing?  JZ: Yeah, grass is always _ - DM: _ _. Oh, ok. 


KT: & you have the levee wide enough so that a vehicle can drive ON it to inspect it?  DC:  Oh yes.  JZ:  Oh, yeah, you generally drive on top & the side slopes are such that you can cut the grass;  & that's part of the idea to make it so it can be maintained.  


4/19/04 Levee - Section  20 of  21


MM:  How do you stop the burrowing animals?  JW: Shoot 'em. (they laugh) JZ:  It's up to the city to op & maint, but however, however you think you can handle this. 


JW: _ seen a deer down there with his 222.  DC:  That's a problem;  next problem;  but it's one that you can pretty well take care of.  You talk to the Conservation Division.  CLM:  Yeah, but you gotta keep on top of it.  DC:  Right.  CLM:  If you don't, it will become A major problem.  DC: The groundhogs would & you have the muskrats & everything else & the beavers that build in there;  but the beaver is probably the worst thing that (maybe?) dams up the det ponds & that.  Then you have to get in there & we've already taken care of that.  If you work with the right people, they'll come in & trap.  You can talk to the trappers. 


CLM: Oh yeah, you can trap 'em;  you can put  _ _ _ _ - DC: The Mo Trapping Assn, all you have to do is contact them & they'll come in & - KT:  They'll relocate 'em.  DC: Oh yeah, they relocate 'em!  Yeah, they relocate their hides!  JW:  On somebody's wall. (many laugh heartily) DC: They relocate their hides. KT: Get a few walls dressed up.  JW: _ relocatin' 'em I'll guarantee ya -


CLM:  Based upon on levee dist's experience, I would recommend that you don't hire a guy to shoot 'em & bring 'em in to you so much a head because - DC: No.  CLM:  I know one that just did that;  & then they found out that after a couple of yrs, he was hiring school kids to get 'em & bring 'em to him.  He was payin' them a nickel apiece & then gettin' a quarter - KT: No, no.


DC:  We're in a situation here where you can't very well let people come in & shoot because of the fact is we're in a cmty.  Most of these levees are around cmtys or peepers, people that's - but you talk to the MO Trappers, I've already talked to them & if we have any problems with beavers or the groundhogs, we'll let 'em know & they can come in & - BW:  They'll relocate 'em.  (they laugh)  DC: Definitely, they'll relocate 'em out of the area.  They're definitely _ - KT: _ _ _ - DC:  You'll have no problem.  I have the fella's cards at home & if I need him, all I have to do is call 'em.  They'll take care of it. 


4/19/04 Levee - Section 21 of  21


CLM:  Next mtg 5/17.  DC: Do what?  CLM:  Next mtg 5/17.  DC:  That's it, same time, same place.  JW: I guess you could have some new Bd members _ _  _ _ - DC:  Be where?  JW&KT:  Here.  ?:  At the next mtg?  JW: You could have new or different members.  DC:  No new members.  You're all - you all weren't elected this time.   You're all - JW: Oh, we're all - everybody that was on there, is - DC:  Everybody on there is sittin' perfect. JW:  He could change it.  DC: Huh?  JW:  He could change it.  DC:  Well, he could - I mean that's up to, not me, but everybody is - ?:  He could be hangin' on the wall too. (they laugh heartily)  ?:  He could be uno.  (they begin to disperse)